Something to think off ...

[Cicero]

Dear Planeteers,

I have to get something of my chest, and I hope by doing so will not hurt someones feelings. If this would happen, please rest assured that this is not my intention. Bare also in mind that English is not my mother language, something which could cause words to sound more harshly than they were meant.

Here we go: I am a member of the Planet for a little over a year now. At the start I was enjoyed with the quality of the messages and contributions. You could learn a lot from them, and as a result I checked new posts several times a day.

While I am in no way less interested in the hobby I noticed that during the last months messages on PF start degrading to nothing more than a mere cheering for every shown piece. I appreciate that everyone, no matter the level, puts a lot of efforts into his/her work to get the best possible results. However, it is obvious that not every shown figurine can be catalogued as a masterpiece, well on the contrary. Nevertheless big chance it is that given comments will be in the line of “awesome, fantastic, incredible, …”.

Off course, it is not a shame being not a real artist on the matter, but I feel that by denying the exhibiting painter/sculptor constructive critiques, is depriving him/her off the incentives to further and improve his/her talents. I also think that this tendency for undeserved superlatives in the end will diminish the lust with more than one member to contribute anymore. It surely has this effect on me.

This means not that a beginning or even experienced figurinist (nobody is perfect) should be cut down when he/she has found the courage to show his/her work. But I am convinced that we all (at least I am) publish here to hear fair critiques to reveal major or minor flaws we unintentionaly tend to overlook, proud as we are with the result we got after weeks of intensive work. Something we can remedy straight away, or will be minding in our future projects. My device has always been that figure painting is a lifetime quest for the unreachable perfection. But it is just that knowledge that keeps me going.

My conclusion: please let us turn back to a forum where you can find lots of information on techniques of historical facts, and with honest constructive comments, something we all can and will benefit from.

Glad I have said it!

Best regards

Johan

 

[KeithP]

Comments removed by author.

Keith

 

[rodsginger]

Johan
Cool topic.
Personally I think that you and Keith are on the right track and that is what PF is all about. The ability of being able to express ones own view and at the end of the day that here at PF it is a mighty fine place to take your shoes off and put your feet up for a while and relax.
If you post and want a critque rather than an observation perhaps a word or two on that request would be helpful on your post. Then all who care to can respond accordingly.
For me, PF is what I want, or choose it to be. It is utterly my choice which is not dependent on others postings etc. I enjoy all of what PF has to offer which does not mean that I like everything however in saying that I do enjoy the diversity of the postings, the humour - or lack of it at times, the skills exhibited by the various artists and the willingness to share knowledge etc. etc.
Kia ora guys and gals
Rod

 

[captnenglish]

Johann,
I for one understand and in part agree with your post in many respects. That having been said, I think that there are two reasons for a lack of criticism on the part of some PF members (myself included). In my opinion and this posst is STRICTLY my opinion, members my not want to criticize others either, because this is a hobby and meant to be fun (it took me years to realize that one) or because they do not want to start any trouble, which forums like this have been prone to in the past.

Again this is just my opinion.

Matt Hauck

 

[Guy]

I think each of you have valid points and I have seen the cycles come and go on the planet in the almost 3 years now. I, myself see many different figures posted and also recognize that many are with different styles of painting than my own. I always have to remember that as it may not be my own style of painting and there fore the figure does.....look great....or look fantastic. Is it how I may paint it?.......maybe not......but it still does not deter the fact that it is a fantastic paint job on a given figure.

Also as mentioned above.......state you want constructive feedback to learn and not just post an image and thats all. Our rule of the thumb is.....if critisim is not asked for.....its not given........some people just can't take constructive critism.....and thats ok.......its just how it is.

 

[Lancer]

Hey Johan
I have to agree and yet disagree. I've noticed figures posted that leave me stunned. The quality of the work, the painting and even groundwork leave me wondering if I'll ever come close to that skill level, and these pieces recieve the proper praise they are due. I've also noticed work that I would consider entry level at best recieve the same praise and comments.

I've never had a negative comment about anything I've ever posted and while thats encouraging, I know its not the quality I'm trying to achieve, my colors are weak, as well as my highlighting and shadows and I struggle with my fleshtones.
Herein lies my problem, I'm 90% color blind so telling me my reds suck just pisses me off, I already know that. Telling me to add some other color to my cadnium red is useless because I won't know what color I end up with, put it in a formula 10% of this and 90% of that = your shadow, is something I can use.

However, how many members on the planet are willing to offer that kind of advice or criticism? How many will resent that kind of input? How long will it take before the comments degenerate to " your red sucks" without usefull input? We are an international forum, how long before someones poor English creates conflict and perhaps most important, we are all human with ego's to match, how long before a steady stream of criticism irrates us to the point of quiting the forum or worse striking back?

In the end, if I see a piece that that inspires me, I'll offer my appreciation like others do, when I post one of my pieces and want some brutally honest criticism I'll ask for it, and when I see a piece that doesn't measure up, I won't post anything at all. After all who am I to criticise or offer advice to others when I know my own work is something less than perfect.

Cheers
Mark
P.S. It's been a worse than lousy day so forgive the crude English and disjointed thoughts, hope the message is recieved in the spirit intended!

 

[John Long]

Interesting topic Johan. I'm reminded of an episode of the sitcom "Seinfeld" in which a doctor refers to a very ugly baby as "breathtaking". This same term is applied later on in the episode by the same doctor to Elaine. She doesn't know how to interpret this. Is it a compliment, or is he trying to be congenial to her as he was to the "ugly" baby?

I have personally been the beneficiary of advice given by those who have seen my work on these forums. The way I see it; if I post an in-progress piece, I want some feedback. If I post a completed piece, I can't really do much with the advice, so I'd almost rather not have any. That's my personal feeling. Having said that, all comments are welcome. My advice to anyone wanting a critique is to say so in the post including the work.

 

[garyjd]

This is a subject I have thought about myself, but felt there would be no harm in leaving it alone. I agree that there is a lot of congratulating and "job well done" comments on here. There may even be more than what is deserved. I can honestly say that for every piece I offer encouragement or positive comment(s) to/for there is another that I say nothing about. If someone posts pictures of a painted or scratchbuilt figure and asks the membership to comment on it, I do if I feel I have something worthwhile to say. Though I have commented when it's not even asked for. Only a small percentage of the membership post pictures of their work. There are even probably more that just "lurk" on the site, and are satisfied just reading the threads. A lot of painters and sculptors never post, maybe feeling they are out of their element. I find this detrimental to the expansion of the hobby and unfair to those who feel their work is not worthy of viewing. If you do post and feel no one is looking just look at the views your posting recieves. One thing that should be kept in mind is why we paint or sculpt figures? The reasons are as varied as the people that participate. Some of us view miniatures as an artform, others just a hobby. There are some that paint hoping to win that gold medal at a show, or paint just for personal enjoyment. I really do not feel that works getting kudos when they may not really be deserved hurts Pf or is a bad thing. individually I think we're intelligent enough to know what we like and do not like, and what is good and what is not good.~Gary

 

[BSPRU]

Good topic. I usually just lurk. If you ask me a techinical question I.E. did someone wear that uniform or badge that year in that army, I would give you a definate answer with references to back up my opinion(which could be disputed with someone else references). But painting reminds me of a 15 year old kid who painted his first figure with his MG 42 ammo boxes painted straight metal and no shading of his figure. I thought it was a great first effort and suggested the shading and painting the boxes a grey/greenish color. I knew this person and could converse with him at a club meeting and hopefully encouraging him and not discouraging him.
With this medium you do not know the age,skill level,temperment,native language and a whole host of intangibles of a person that you try to have constructive criticism of his/her figure. My level of painting is very medium at best so I know what I want to accomplish with my painting but have not perfected it yet. So this is my long winded way to say I rather not say anything that would piss someone off unintentionally and enjoy the insights of others. I remember the old HM forum had a lot of flame wars started before its demise.
brian

 

[Robin]

Hi

Cicero, you are a brave man and I must say you have my respect for bringing up a topic I thought would never come up.

I have read the replies and it sort of boils down to we don't wanna upset anybody by posting criticism that might hurt that persons feeling and that all efforts that are posted are good for that person and should be praised.

Well, surprisingly I don't agree, you can be upsetting the person who genuinely posts for someone to say , well that face needs more colour, watch your highlights here. There is also another danger here, the replies tell the painter that is work is wonderfull he pops it into a local show and gets not even a second look from a judge, He walks up to a judge, his prized piece in his hand and says, "dood, whats wrong with this?" , a nice smile on his face , the judge replies , " do you want me to be honest?" said modeller replies in the affirmative" the following conversation had two effects, the modeller doesn't come here any more, he sends his pics to the judge via email and they have become pretty good friends. as you can guess thats a true story.

Criticism is not about upsetting people its about good honest opinions of the figure( which is what Cicero is talking about) and if you can't do that then don't reply to any post.

I am lucky I have a couple of good friends who I know send pics too and I get emails back saying what about this what colour did you use for that, and they send pics to me and I try to be honest back, thats called exchange of skills etc, which again is what Cicero means.


As to our Colour Blind friend,I cannot imagine how difficult it is to paint a figure being colour blind, but to get mixes how about a little note on your posts saying, I am colour blind I would prefer ratio mixes instead of to add a bit of this colour till you the the colour you need, difficult for people to give advice fully when not alll the facts are known.

In all honesty I will tell you I know alot of modellers here in the UK that think PF is too touchy feely and so go to others forums to get Crit and advice, they all lament about the time when it was good honest criticism here rather that what is here now. So maybe its times for the staff at PF to take a step back maybe publish some guidelines on what is right and what is wrong so that we can get back what is gone.

Best regards

Robin

 

[DaveCox]

I have seen too many people upset by harsh criticism on other sites, so I have my own rules on posting:

If I think that someone's work is good then I'll say so - whilst improving my own work I've been boosted by some of the comments that I receive.

If I don't think that the work is good, then if I have the knowledge of the subject, OR could do better myself then I'm happy to post criticism if I can do so by picking on certain points, AND by suggesting a fix.If I can't do that, then I shut up and don't post!

 

[marvin]

Dave,

You hit the nail on the head. Critisism (in my opinion) should always contain two elements:

1- An indication of what is 'wrong'
2- An indication of how it could be improved

The lack of the ability to think of the second is why I almost never give critique. That said I think this is a difficult issue. I need critisism (mainly on models cause I can't seem to find the time for figures...), but it needs to be given in the correct tone. As was stated before it depends on culture, language en psychological profile of both people... I'm not sure if there are guidelines to this.

- Marvin's $0.02-

 

[garyjd]

Originally posted by Robin@Apr 29 2006, 01:49 AM
Criticism is not about upsetting people its about good honest opinions of the figure( which is what Cicero is talking about) and if you can't do that then don't reply to any post.

In all honesty I will tell you I know alot of modellers here in the UK that think PF is too touchy feely and so go to others forums to get Crit and advice, they all lament about the time when it was good honest criticism here rather that what is here now. So maybe its times for the staff at PF to take a step back maybe publish some guidelines on what is right and what is wrong so that we can get back what is gone.

Robin

Robin, There are a number of postings that do not ask for advice or opinions. they just post a picture for viewing by the membership. there are also times when the photo(s) make it difficult to offer anything even if one was asked or not.

What I'm a little confused by is this group of folks that are of the opinion that Pf is too "touchy feely" and go to other sites for advice. Do they ask for opinions? or maybe they are not hearing what they want to hear. What bearing, if any, should it have on their work just because someone else's figure got a pat on the back, regardless of quality or lack thereof?

As for setting "guidelines", I do not think I need someone to tell or instruct me on how or what I should say. What I might think is a nice piece of work you might think it's not. Are these guidelines going to tell us who's opinion is more correct? If someone asks for an opinion give it, if not, don't. I try to find something positive to say about what someone has sculpted or painted that was either done well or at least shows promise. If there's nothing to say I don't.

Are a lot of pieces getting kudos when they probably are more than they deserve? In part yes. I think what we should also keep in mind at what level are we involved. Do we do this just for relaxation? Or are we chasing medals? We are all looking to get something from this hobby/artform. It's one thing to be frustrated when you do not feel that folks are giving you their honest opinion of your work, and quite another getting your shorts in a bunch because someone else is getting a pat on the back.~Gary

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Oh this is indeed a hard dilemma for the most of us.

I agree very much with what has been written by Robin and Gary.
Its so hard to tell whether people want criticism or just encouragement.

Sometimes they dont even know it themselves. I agree with Guy that it should be clearly asked for, before being given. Perhaps in the title?

Planet Figure is not the only internet-forum where this is a problem.

On armorama for example they have a special forum for just that.

I alwat try to point out one or two good things before doing any criticism. Some people has apreciated it, like Marc (Megroot) and it has been nice and inspiring to see him develop literally with every new figure. Others have not apreciated it and therefore Ive stopped posting comments on their work, at least negative or criticism.

Cheers

 

[Jason W.]

Originally posted by Uruk-Hai@Apr 29 2006, 07:15 AM
it should be clearly asked for, before being given. Perhaps in the title?

Planet Figure is not the only internet-forum where this is a problem.

Problem? What problem?


Guy's and Gal's, IMO your looking into this too much. It's simple-If someone wants a crit then they'll ask for it. If not, don't post and enjoy the "eye-candy"... No matter the flavor.

If some of our UK friends and others feel they're not being challenged enough... By all means, go to the "other" forum(s) and get it. Just hope the people who give crit's openly, are willing to have their work critiqued. It's funny reading in other forums who's "regular/popular" members are none too shy to give crit's but yet don't post their own work. :lol:

However, I do make exception to crit's on commercial figures...After all, they are trying to make us spend our hard earned dollars. Hypocritical? To each his own.

We are a strange breed.

Jason

"All glory is fleeting"

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Problems is:

People posting their work are not getting constructive criticism when they wont it.

And the opposite of course.

Depending on the reason why you post this is for some a problem. Whether they are posting their work or giving feedback on it.

Why should the British go to another forum?

Cheers

 

[Jason W.]

If they feel they're NOT being challenged enough....Read my post again, Janne.

I also mentioned "others" not ALL UK members....Your only trying to start a flame war, brother.

Jason

 

[Jason W.]

Originally posted by Uruk-Hai@Apr 29 2006, 09:04 AM


Why should the British go to another forum?

Hey, I love Brit's

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Originally posted by Jason W.@Apr 29 2006, 09:25 AM
....Your only trying to start a flame war, brother.

Jason

I beg your pardon? :angry:

Am I only trying to start a "flame war"?

I let others judge that. Id suggest you rather stick to topic.

 

[Robin]

At the risk of starting as Jason calls it a "Flame War", its not just Brits who I hear this from. The big thing here is that the forum is called the " As always " forum, for all the "Great Work as always" answers to posts that get posted against so many figures.

Oh and yes your being Hypocritical Jason by only posting on the figures done for selling.

We all paint badly at some time, Gary you cannot get me to believe that as good as some of your sculpts are there is not half started or ones you think are not up to scratch on your work bench, there as reminders to what went wrong as much as the good ones remind you about what went right.

Maybe there should be a way of indicating that you want criticism, for me I am thick skinned, pull the little blighters to pieces, I'd rather you did. The one thing that does pop to mind about Criticism is:-

Using Gary as an example and this is by no means ever happened purely an example:

Gary has been sculpting a figure and hes tired and as he looks at it there seems to be something wrong with it, can't quite place his finger on it. So he thinks I know let the guys at PF look at it.

So up he pops 3 pics and off he goes to bed. Next morning he has 6 "Great Work As always Gary" posts and from one bloke he has well what about the proportions of the that leg(the thing that niggled him) maybe just maybe he ignores the one post thinks everything is ok. Finishes teh sculpt only to think By god hes right the leg is off.

Just a thought.


As for other forums they have special forums as Janne says for this so why not here.Offer your fig up for slaughter, if you expecting it it can't be that bad and if the posts are offensive rather than critical then aint that what Moderators are for?

I think one point that is being blown up here, no one has said this is a bad forum, just a little too one way when the wealth of knowledge and experience that is here doesn't seem to want to put out so to speak.


Robin