What is Bad Taste?

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Bluesking

A Fixture
Joined
Oct 22, 2003
Messages
1,126
Location
Northern Ireland
Given there are a lot of figures out there, some depicting the ugliest side of human nature, I got to thinking what would I NOT model, what subjects are just too far for good taste to prevail.
Presonally I would not consider anything associated with the WW2 Death camps, torture or subjects such as Suicide Bombers. I have never modelled Adolf Hitler and would face a moral dilema if asked to - I don't think the man needs any form of "glorification".

Well that's my two pence worth - what's your views? Is everything fair game?
 
Hey Stephen. That's a good question. I'm sure others will chime in. I'd say that no SUBJECT would be out of bounds if handled properly. There are things I personally don't care to depict with my art, but I don't stand in judgment of what others want to do. Another quick point; sometimes art is supposed to be thought provoking and can make one uncomfortable.
 
Very well written, John!

Couldnt put it better myself.

The only thing I would object to is someone on purpose portray historical events untrue due to their own politcal agenda. Example: Holocaust deniers and the likes of them.

I do admit that some scenes/figures could be provocative but why not put them in a special area on a show with warnings signs and perhaps an extra admission fee.
It will probably be the most attended area at that show. :)

Cheers
 
Point well made John, when you think about it, to some people the bomb attempt on Hitler was a terrorist attack on a legimately elected political leader and yet we all regret the attempt failed What about the porn type models?
 
There are many types of figures that could potentially display bad taste and they would probably never be agreed upon. A Bonapartisit may consider a scene of Napoleon dumping Josephine to be bad taste; an Elvis fan may not have appreciated the recent "Elvis has left the building" scene and a person who has lost a relative in combat may not want to view a vignette with a dead or dying figure on it.

Bad taste is a function of an individual's own tastes and society's collective taste. Displaying a figure in bad taste should probably not be restricted unless it falls completely outside societal norms - and then you are in a censorhip argument with all the fun that entails.

And a last 2 cents - Stephen - I have a small quibble with classing Stauffenberg's bomb attack on Hitler on July 20 as a terrorist attack - it was not as it did not intend to terrorize anyone. IMHO it was an attempted political assassination and coup against a criminal dictator and regime that was by no stretch of the imagination "legitimately elected." If one is going to assess its morality, one needs to do it in the context of assessing whether tyranicide is ever justified. Sorry for the nit pick - but the German resistance movement is my major area of interest (and I see most of these guys as honourable men and unsung heroes) ;)

Cheers

Colin
 
I have no issues depicting historical events... including the more brutal side of human nature... there's no point in sticking one's head in the sand and pretending it never happened. I don't see it necessarily as glorifying the persona or event... we need to remeber what happened in order to prevent it from happening again.
 
I dare say that atrocities have probably always happened ever since man was able to pick up a sword or slingshot. Many are conveniently airbrushed out of history. I do not profess to be any kind of expert, but I understand that Britain's role in South Africa was not without it's disgraceful moments. But the passage of time makes things fade away, and we forget.

What I can't get my head round at all though is the popularity of SS stuff within modelling. Surely these people must be aware of the things that went on in the name of what those uniforms represented. Much of which is all still within living memory, with the pain that goes with it... 'Look at my new Einzatsgruppen corporal' they say. Have you no idea what these people did?

Shame really to bring politics into modelling. I do it to get away from that kinda stuff.
I am in no way suggesting for a minute that anybody modelling such stuff sympathises with the SS at all. It's just that I myself will never do it.
 
Without getting into politics, how much gore is too much, or how much bare skin consitutes porn, my general guidelines are that I have two levels of display.

The first level is what I do for public display. I regard all public shows as being family-oriented events, and so I would avoid displaying anything at a show that I would be uncomfortable showing to a child or reasonably worldly woman.

The second level is the private or personal level. This stuff stays in the back of my cabinet at home, and is shown only to close friends. Here I feel free to be a little wierd, tasteless, and do things I might not display in public.

I think my art interprets history. So, there is no subject that is taboo per se. I might want to model an odious historical figure or subject just to show why he was odious or to say "never again". I doubt that I'd be sympathetic to what I regard as immoral, but I might poke fun at it.
 
Ahhh

the one thing that my Grandad always said, history is written by the winners so the atrocities done by the winners are conviniently done in the name of "good". There were many atrocities done by both sides in the war its good to remember that. Compare staistics for the Blitz against Dresden or Cologne bombing you may be surprised.

ALL WAR is bad there is no such thing as a clean one, we just chose to see some aspects as better than others when this is not true. We all believe that God is on our side, the germans believed it so much they had it stamped on thier belt buckles. I prefer to think of this Hobby as celebrating (if thats the right word I am not sure if it is) the men that fought whatever side whichever war, they had the guts to do it which I have to admire.

The people who least want to fight a war are those that are trained for it because you realise that what you are training to do so are the other guys.

Its easy to condemn when we haven't done it,never needed to do it and God I hope never have to do it.

Its all afterall modelling, sometimes we just take it too serious


Robin
 
What is bad taste? Definitely avacados and artichokes.... YUCK!

And in that statement is the crux of the question. There are alot of people who LIKE those things! But I could not eat them unless a gun was pointed at my head. So, my yucko is another man's ambrosia. To each their own.

Most any art that is provocative or makes people think will offend somebody. That is the nature of being confronted by things that we would rather not think about.

Let's face it, we are in the business of doing models of people whose major voacation is killing other people! That sucks! It can be argued that the depiction of soldiers itself is obscene. From a moral standpoint, I don't think anybody can argue that war is a good thing. It is, unabashedly, the organized and systematic slaughter of our fellow men. Murder is murder, no matter what kind of "moralistic" justification you wrap it in. "Thou shalt not kill". I think we can all agree with that. Yet, the killing still goes on. Every day.

But this kind of "history" seems to fascinate a lot of us. I think it is like the car wreck on the side of the road. It kinda gives you the willies. Nobody "likes" such things! But sure enough we are, all of us, craning our necks to look at it as we drive past............!

We are all going to be offended by SOME things. But any art that pretends to tell us something that needs to be said is going to make some of us uncomfortable. We cannot maintain "denial" (the universal "comfort zone" for all 'uncomfortable' moral dilemmas) when somebody confronts us with truth. That is the nature of truth.

And if you have anything of value to say, you are going to have to poke your stick into a hornet's nest every now and then.

The choice is this: are you going to be an angry hornet, or the curious bystander fascinated by the whole exercise?

Mike
 
I have a couple of projects in mind that might be construed as politically incorrect but that is not going to stop me. I am more concerend with how to render the subject than I am about whether the subject or not is in good taste.

I agree with Mike that military subjects by their very nature are dealing with probably one of the most horrendous human endeavors yet we have built a mythology up around them. I hate the Nazis but I can appreciate a well painted SS soldier on that basis. If I thought doing miniatures of Nazis was creating an apotheosis of them I would refrain. As it is I do not do Nazis probably more for the reason that there are so many others that do them I do not feel I can make a meaningful contribution. However, having said that if I found some compelling reason to do Nazis that no one else had done I would do it in a hearbeat.
 
I think, We are "human images makers" And this nature must include All the states of the man, we cannot only focus at sunny moments, also it exists the night... and the dark... like escultor, I have enjoyed much each one my versions of Gandhi...but I must confess, that I have also enjoyed the development a figure of Hitler... Then we cannot avoid to recognize that it is a quite "complex and exciting variant" of the human nature also...

Alex.
 
Very interesting topic gentlemen. Personally, there are some things that I consider inappropriate or not decent, but that is largely my own opinion. For example, I am an axis armor modeller as well, and I happen to own a large collection of Waffen SS figures. Now, while I have no problem painting a grenadier from Nordland or Wiking, I personally would not chose to paint some Einsatzgruppen/deathcamp guard/Dirlewanger Brigade jerks. Simply because I find these men to be horrible human beings and see no reason to recreate them in miniature. There are of course other things to consider in this discussion. For example, pirates were not exactly what I would consider "good people" but they seem to be somewhat popular. And I am sure that if one goes into the middle ages and Roman era, there are villians that are still painted. Perhaps it can be thought of this way, an artist can't always portray good, and may want to portray the dark side of human nature. In this case, a Hitler/Stalin/any bad person may be a legitimate historical subject, and if the artist were to approach it the right way, it could be a very thought provoking and interesting piece. I remember on WW2 modelmaker when a diorama by Sung Ho Park was published to the gallery, depicting the murder of jews at the hands of the Nazis. I, and others, found this to be a thought provoking, moving, historically interesting, and very well done dio. Others were disturbed, shocked, and upset that such a topic had made it way into their hobby. You can see it here if you wish to: http://www.ww2modelmaker.com/modelpages/SHPmygod.htm

It is not too graphic a depiction (I've seen more graphic battle dios), but be prepared it is some what haunting and not your usual "SS guys found a pack of Lucky Strikes" dio.
 
Kind of makes me think of the Monte Python sketch with the pope and Michelangelo. A long and phony conversation ends with John Cleese who plays the pope saying:

-Well I may not know much about art, but I do know what I like! :lol:

Id say that anyone can do what they like but I might not like and if gore and nudity(etc) is the main theme of the scene for its own sake its probably will look poor. While other settings might be enchanced with it. Depending on what you would like the viewer to react upon. When uncertain use the smallest amound of gore and nudity(etc) to tell the story.

The hard thing to solve is what one can display at shows. I can agree that small childen should be spared certain things(especially nazi stuff) and people that are easily offended should be given a fair warning. As in my first post. On the other hand shows nowdays, at least the ones that I attend, does not seem to be very family oriented. Just old geeks like myself. :eek:


Thanks Mike for your company and nice chats in Boston.
And of course to Cathy too. :)
I really hope youve lost the blimp by now...........
 
I often wonder how many people raised in the North object to figures of Confederate soldiers. (And vice versa.) Likewise, is there anyone in the hobby today whose politics strongly lean toward the left who object to figures of OIF soldiers or models of F-15s, F-16s, and Abrams tanks?

I tend to think that everything is fair game, but then to be fair, no one has ever offended me by misrepresenting something that I value highly. I guess at the end of the day, each of us is going to be respected in the hobby based on the subject matter we choose and how we choose to portray it.
 
Here's pictures from one small portion of a 1999 piece by English bad-boy artists, the Chapman Brothers. Hell was seven separate cased dioramas, each with a different scene of Nazis being tormented by demons in a Hell that includes a McDonalds. 7000+ figures in 1/35-1/32. The 7 cases fit together to form a room-sized swastika. You can find more of it on Google.
 
I think the motive of the artist should be considered when discussing "bad taste". I believe there is a basic level of "morality" which transcends politics, religion or culture (most every civilized person agrees murder and brutality are bad). I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to provoke thought or discussion with scenes of ugliness or brutality, but if the artist intends to evoke feelings or behaviors which are prurient, base, or antisocial, I consider that in poor taste. Granted, determining what the artist's motives are could be difficult, but not always.
 
Originally posted by mike23@Jul 18 2005, 04:50 PM
Here's pictures from one small portion of a 1999 piece by English bad-boy artists, the Chapman Brothers.

Wow... That is...interesting to say the least. Does this remind anybody else of Bosch's work? Sorry to get off track, just wanted to comment on that.
 
I'm curious as to what the motivation or objective is behind doing a piece that might shock, horrify, or anger one or more people.~Gary
 

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