WIP Critique Seil Models European Knight (14 C A.D.)

[Ineluki]

Hello.

I'd like to present another WIP model, which is a Seil Models Knight.
I didn't like boxart colours, so after some research (done actually more by my friends than me) I decided to paint the figure using (more-less) the historical graff von Nassau - Scheibler heraldry (photo attached).
Now, I'm not sure if it was a good decision, to abandon boxart colours.
I did my best on this model, but somehow, I din't like the result. It's a pity, beacuse I'm not going to repaint it, this griffon (or what it is) design costed me a lot of work.
This is a 54 mm model.
As usual, comments are welcome.

 

[gordy]

Very nice shade of blues Simon!

 

[pinsel]

hello painting is fine.interesting is that the figur wears an coat of plate.but the sculptur did not include buckles and the openings for closing it at the sides.in this combination its totally impossible to put it on.because one can not draw it like an mailshirt over the head.this armour was made of an thick lether jerkin with metal plates rivetted to it.this is shown by the rows of studs.
always interesting to see that such things are completly left aside in sculpting.its like an cardigan without opening for the head....simply impossible.pitty besides this flaws its an nice figure.one could add this features to make it correct.or maybe the arms will be sitting in such close position that the sides of the torso can not be seen.
i think the heraldry is latter than that of the figure which would depict around 1350 ties.
neverless the results are fine so far.
cheers

 

[megroot]

hello painting is fine.interesting is that the figur wears an coat of plate.but the sculptur did not include buckles and the openings for closing it at the sides.in this combination its totally impossible to put it on.because one can not draw it like an mailshirt over the head.this armour was made of an thick lether jerkin with metal plates rivetted to it.this is shown by the rows of studs.
always interesting to see that such things are completly left aside in sculpting.its like an cardigan without opening for the head....simply impossible.pitty besides this flaws its an nice figure.one could add this features to make it correct.or maybe the arms will be sitting in such close position that the sides of the torso can not be seen.
i think the heraldry is latter than that of the figure which would depict around 1350 ties.
neverless the results are fine so far.
cheers

markus,
I'm not a historian but i like to paint figures, and most of us do that on this forum. If we have to spent all our time to see if there is missing some thiny thing on a figure (for instance a button) we paint nothing.
I think if we do that, we are close to guys who are counting the rivets on a AFV.

Where do you want the buckles for closing the plated coat???
You can't see it!!!! He is wearing his cloth of armour over it!!!!!!!!!!!
Is that what you call a plated coat
He has mentioned the name off the graff von nassau-schleiber.
Into the Scheiblersches Wappenbuch you can find alot of heraldy.
This heraldy belong to the graff von Nassau. And as a dutchman i know that the Nassau's has a long tradition into heraldy. Even untill today.

I hope that someday you sculpt a figure that is correct at everything. Because you have always to say something about the sculpting. It's not the first time that i made a comment on that, but i promised myself this is the last time. And i promise myself that i do not give a reaction on this one.

And as far as this figure is painted. I like when somebody paint something different then the boxart. Specially when it is done in this way.
It's great.

 

[pinsel]

hello well again here you have to use logic.
he is wearing an coat of plates.this is shown by the rivestts and the metall domes on which the chains are afixed to.he is wearing no heralic surcoat over it.this would be unlogic too because you would have cuts in the front to leave the domes free on which you hook in the chains which secure sword and dagger.otherwise if you slide the surcoat simpla over the domes would ly UNDER the it-so how will you afix your chains???
there may have been such surcoats but if they would have been awkward in use.on neraly all garveephitaphs this coat of plates are shown without any tunic worn over it.so i think no one fiddles around with unpratic clothing in field.
the coat of plates is recorded from grace finds of visby gotland.
and there are closed and buckled to the sides and some even on top of shoulders.
so if we conclude that this figure wears such an coat of plates which is shown by the rivett heads and the dommes for the chains,one must ask how does he put it on???no buckles and seams where the armourparts do meet are visisble.
so without spreading wisdom its simply unlogic and impossible to wear this armour sculptet here in reality.and when we asume an figure shall be an copy of the original we should think that the parts of clothing should be present.
if not then one should be not cross when on an modern battlesuit no buttons are sculpted.
its simply again an example that here an sculptur did not know how the orginal did work.
its simply unlogic that the coat has no parts sculptet which depit its closings.not more.

 

[pinsel]

again i do not understand your hysteric attitude here
what is your problem.?,is it so unbearably that people which did spent some time with ancient armour and weapons make comments when something is incorrect.
is this here forbidden or must one endure then that certain people are pissed beyond recognition????if yes so be it kill me for it or name me ashole of the century.i give no nickle on your personal oppinion.
i am not interested in your ways you tackle the hobby if you want not correct figures then go for them.you can buy tons of them if you want i simply expect an good product for money i shall spent.
as i expect on toasters or on an fridge i pay for.if you do not then its your thing.
yes i dared to point out details which will not work in reality,and it seems that you one of the people which finds this completly inproper or unbelievable nosy.
i have understood your attitude towards mine.but i give no nickle on it.if you believe an forum has no room for different peoples and only chaps from the ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh and ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh fractionyou are propably right.
neverless i will from time to time write such things.maybe i will loose interest in it in future because its completly senseless.which is prooven by your reaction.
so what else could i write?i think nothing because i expalined you NOW SEVERALL TIME MY MOTIVES and you always repeat the same crap.yes i know you want apint without any regards to historicall issues.but maybe some other people see this different.
and if not who cares.

 

[housecarl]

I wouldn't know a historically correct piece of armour if it fell on me from a great height. But I do know what I like when it comes to painting, and this I like.
Love the heraldry Simon,
Carl.

 

[Don Johnson]

Marcus, Here's a suggestion for the next time you wish to comment on what you believe to be deficiencies in someone's painting and/or sculpting:

Start with something like "In my opinion..." or "Based on what I can see...", then proceed to your point, and then stop.

Readers may agree with you, and either say so or not, or they may disagree with you, and may say so or not.

Those who are interested in your observations may ask for additional information or sources, so they may educate themselves as you apparently have.

Perhaps a sculptor and/or painter may make it a point to seek info or opinion from you on some future project.

Or it is possible someone may disagree with what you have said, or perhaps the manner in which you have said it. Which is their right (within the rules of the forum), just as it is your right to comment initially (again, within the rules).

Your reaction to someone who disagrees, or holds a different point of view, is to either NOT RESPOND, or to ENGAGE IN POLITE CONVERSATION.

Speaking only for myself, I dislike your habit of responding in a spiteful manner to anyone who appears to hold a different perspective than the one you hold. You don't discuss - you seem to attack. Frankly, your demeanor leaves me skeptical as to your purported knowledge, and usually causes me to disregard your posts. Perhaps I am losing out on precious nuggets of information, but like Marc and Carl have already stated, I like painted figures for their artistry first and foremost, realizing that as with any historical inquiry, the "facts" are almost always in dispute.

Perhaps it is the limitations of this medium that are getting in the way here. Maybe we would not have these issues if we were all sitting around a table, each with our favorite beverage, and able to see and hear each other.

In any event, I have no expectation that you will heed my advise here, but your attack on Marc was, in my opinion, so unjustified in tone and content, that I did not feel that it should pass without comment.

 

[Tommi]

Marcus, Here's a suggestion for the next time you wish to comment on what you believe to be deficiencies in someone's painting and/or sculpting:

Start with something like "In my opinion..." or "Based on what I can see...", then proceed to your point, and then stop.

Readers may agree with you, and either say so or not, or they may disagree with you, and may say so or not.

Those who are interested in your observations may ask for additional information or sources, so they may educate themselves as you apparently have.

Perhaps a sculptor and/or painter may make it a point to seek info or opinion from you on some future project.

Or it is possible someone may disagree with what you have said, or perhaps the manner in which you have said it. Which is their right (within the rules of the forum), just as it is your right to comment initially (again, within the rules).

Your reaction to someone who disagrees, or holds a different point of view, is to either NOT RESPOND, or to ENGAGE IN POLITE CONVERSATION.

Speaking only for myself, I dislike your habit of responding in a spiteful manner to anyone who appears to hold a different perspective than the one you hold. You don't discuss - you seem to attack. Frankly, your demeanor leaves me skeptical as to your purported knowledge, and usually causes me to disregard your posts. Perhaps I am losing out on precious nuggets of information, but like Marc and Carl have already stated, I like painted figures for their artistry first and foremost, realizing that as with any historical inquiry, the "facts" are almost always in dispute.

Perhaps it is the limitations of this medium that are getting in the way here. Maybe we would not have these issues if we were all sitting around a table, each with our favorite beverage, and able to see and hear each other.

In any event, I have no expectation that you will heed my advise here, but your attack on Marc was, in my opinion, so unjustified in tone and content, that I did not feel that it should pass without comment.

Spot on
Tommi

 

[Ineluki]

Gordy, Markus, Marc, Carl, Don, Tommi - thanks for your comments, although I must admit, to my confusion the discussion went a bit "off road"
I appreciate different opinions, and for now most important for me is that you like my painting.
Markus, you are probably right about the armour, but for me this imperfection doesn't really matter.
I'd painted fantasy miniatures for several years, so I wouldn't die for realism .
I could even assumed, this was a magical armour, let's say, +10 HP, resistance to non - magical wepons )
Have a good night guys !

 

[John Bowery]

Simon,
I like the colours and the heraldry. Great job so far.
Cheers
John

 

[gordy]

I could even assumed, this was a magical armour, let's say, +10 HP, resistance to non - magical wepons )
Have a good night guys !

How about a +15 Feather to carry more loot!

 

[pinsel]

hello don johnson
well correct me if iam wrong.you state you give nothing to the oppinions of people you do not like?sure why not.your oppinion is supportet by some others.
well i never understood this forum here as arena.nor did i ever had such deep emotions towards peoples which participated in normal threads.
i see it without emotion its always worth to hear other oppinions even that of aseholes.i want not be ignorant.
but what shall i repeat endlessly.you do not like me or my oppinions,why i post them does not barther you because i have the tag on as nosy asehole.that i do it because i find the aspects of armour and edged weapons interesting eludes you-or better does not interest you.for you and the supporters of your oppinion,i do it because out of evil spirit,because i like to write things down.well here you wrong.
well surely an big percentage if not the owerhelming portion does see it like you do.
those which do not do sent only PN and stay quite here.
thats normal.
and if i post something i see no reason to start with ITS MY BELIEVE ,because i think and thing i write here shows my believe already.
well if someone might be pissed because its sounds not humble enough,yes might be.
i see it this way.if you read this and take some informations of it you are welcome,if you are pissed by such minor critics then i can live with it too.
who wants everybody darling.
iam not for sure.for me figure painting is more than only brushing paint on anything.i want try to create an correct model of an original.even if my models are not good.neverless i want them correct
and yes i am terrible in painting and sculpting.maybe that might be an reason for some better abled chaps to neglect the oppinions of lower abled ones.an certain kind of hyrachic order.you can not paint you have to be quite.
i think thats the main aspect.when you are an star you may give some crits.when you are an bad painter you have to shut up and your only task is it to admire the work of the high class painters?
i think its coming more from that corner.an oppinion her is more judged and weightet if its coming from an great star.
but if one looks to the likes given and likes received one sees,that the peoples which present there stuff here like to get cheered,but theyself are very reluctant to give any comments or remarks to the works of the low class diletants.this shows clearly in their level of likes received and likes given away....
so its in great aspect here an plattform on which sculptors and companies present their stuff to get ATTENTION FOR FREE.they present their stuff to increase their sales.to any discussions this sort of people does not add any comments.simply because they have no interest,there are companies here which present the weirdest 75mm crap neverless get praised beyond recongnition.yes i know we do not care WE ONLY PAINT who cares for anything here.
so surely if the low class modellers have here only the job to praise the big ones then i have overstepped all boundaries,beacuse i dared to give humble crits.one di see how it can end with the man which made the knight bust.it ended with an desater like if you would have dared to lift the skirt of an nun..
if this forum would be an place in which one can open discuss figures in all regards,it would be great.
thought it might be-but have prroven more than once its NOT
and because of this i should not comment this new celtic bust which looks like an work of german romantic from the 1850 ties.even if i would love to.would be fun.
of course my oppinion is only valid for my part.and for those which see it as one from the forum troll or arse,shall feel free to neglect it.some others might give it an thought.
cheers

 

[rheath]

hello don johnson
well correct me if iam wrong.you state you give nothing to the oppinions of people you do not like?sure why not.your oppinion is supportet by some others.
well i never understood this forum here as arena.nor did i ever had such deep emotions towards peoples which participated in normal threads.
i see it without emotion its always worth to hear other oppinions even that of aseholes.i want not be ignorant.
but what shall i repeat endlessly.you do not like me or my oppinions,why i post them does not barther you because i have the tag on as nosy asehole.that i do it because i find the aspects of armour and edged weapons interesting eludes you-or better does not interest you.for you and the supporters of your oppinion,i do it because out of evil spirit,because i like to write things down.well here you wrong.
well surely an big percentage if not the owerhelming portion does see it like you do.
those which do not do sent only PN and stay quite here.
thats normal.
and if i post something i see no reason to start with ITS MY BELIEVE ,because i think and thing i write here shows my believe already.
well if someone might be pissed because its sounds not humble enough,yes might be.
i see it this way.if you read this and take some informations of it you are welcome,if you are pissed by such minor critics then i can live with it too.
who wants everybody darling.
iam not for sure.for me figure painting is more than only brushing paint on anything.i want try to create an correct model of an original.even if my models are not good.neverless i want them correct
and yes i am terrible in painting and sculpting.maybe that might be an reason for some better abled chaps to neglect the oppinions of lower abled ones.an certain kind of hyrachic order.you can not paint you have to be quite.
i think thats the main aspect.when you are an star you may give some crits.when you are an bad painter you have to shut up and your only task is it to admire the work of the high class painters?
i think its coming more from that corner.an oppinion her is more judged and weightet if its coming from an great star.
but if one looks to the likes given and likes received one sees,that the peoples which present there stuff here like to get cheered,but theyself are very reluctant to give any comments or remarks to the works of the low class diletants.this shows clearly in their level of likes received and likes given away....
so its in great aspect here an plattform on which sculptors and companies present their stuff to get ATTENTION FOR FREE.they present their stuff to increase their sales.to any discussions this sort of people does not add any comments.simply because they have no interest,there are companies here which present the weirdest 75mm crap neverless get praised beyond recongnition.yes i know we do not care WE ONLY PAINT who cares for anything here.
so surely if the low class modellers have here only the job to praise the big ones then i have overstepped all boundaries,beacuse i dared to give humble crits.one di see how it can end with the man which made the knight bust.it ended with an desater like if you would have dared to lift the skirt of an nun..
if this forum would be an place in which one can open discuss figures in all regards,it would be great.
thought it might be-but have prroven more than once its NOT
and because of this i should not comment this new celtic bust which looks like an work of german romantic from the 1850 ties.even if i would love to.would be fun.
of course my oppinion is only valid for my part.and for those which see it as one from the forum troll or arse,shall feel free to neglect it.some others might give it an thought.
cheers

I personally like the work so far - I also see your fitment of actual uniform parts and feasibility of whether it is correct from an 'actual' point of view.
I think a time out to chill about the matter will be best, perhaps there may even be a chance to do a SBS or some further info on how these uniforms/armour and the like used to look and function? - no expert here meself !

 

[housecarl]

Markus. I see this a figure painting forum foremost. If you lose sleep over historical inaccuracies, go and post somewhere they would appreciate you overwhelming knowledge. Simon has gone to the trouble to post a piece of his work to recieve critique for the painting, and the painting alone. I didn't read in his initial post that he wanted to be derided for the inaccuracy of the figure. As you keep referring to the spat you had with my namesake, he asked you to post photographs to support your claims. None were forth coming. As Rob has rightly stated, maybe it would be nice if you could share your obvious knowledge with us on a subject that is evidently close to your heart.
Still a great paint job,
Carl.

 

[gordy]

"The Historical" and "Critique" argument comes up over and over again.

People need to understand :

Some figurists are:
Completely satisfied with their skill set and want to just display their work

Some figurists :
Put artistry, technique over anything else

Some figurists :
Strive for 100% accuracy

Not any of the above groups are "more right" than another.

Nor is it acceptable to force one groups values onto another.

Once that is understood there is peace.

Don is trying to suggest that the approach to critiquing goes much farther instead of coming out swinging with arms flailing.

Paint and let paint

 

[kagemusha]

Like your attitude Simon and your painting. well done mate.

 

[Marcel]

Excellent looking heraldry Simon!

Cheers,
Marcel.

 

[Andrew Craft]

Great shade of blue, I've been trying a similar sky blue colour recently and it's not an easy colour to do well. Great job mate.

Andrew.

 

[bistray]

Hi All
Just to add a bit to this discussion, First of all on a figure of this scale the paint work and the detail are excellent, and as someone who sculpts and paint heraldic figures this is top class. Second if you look at the figure hes not wearing plate armour, at least no on the torso, you can clearly see that he has a haubergeon on which was a chainmail coat at knee length and a surcoat over the top. if he had plate armour it would be a breast plate with a placard over that and at the bottom would be the Faulds which protect the groin and the Tuille that protect the upper thigh.he also wouldnt wear chainmail underneath it. It was only in the latter part of the 1300s that full plate armour was worn, mainly because it was tooooo expensive, this figure does have Cuisse for the thighs, poleyne paltes for the knees and greaves for the shins and i suppose in an ideal world they would have straps and buckles to hold them on, but ho hum so what its a great piece
Paul