70 years ago tonight
- Thread starter tock24
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sd0324
A Fixture
Brave men.....Thanks to them all.
tonydawe
A Fixture
The family sat down to watch Dambusters on DVD last night in honour of the anniversary. My wife's father was a rear gunner in Lancasters during WW2 and flew with two of the men who joined 617 Squadron and never made it back from the raid. Brave men all.
smudger1960
PlanetFigure Supporter
Fantastic achievement,one of the finest IMO,last year I read the Osprey Title - Operation Chastise ,it's a great read and i recommend it to anyone interested in this theatre of war.
Martin64
A Fixture
The fantastic result of the Dams raid in numbers:
8 aircraft (out of 19) crashed or shot down, 53 aircrew killed, 3 aircrew taken prisoner making about 40 percent of the strength of the attacking force.
2 dams breached, 1 dam lightly damaged - effects of the damages were back to normal within about five weeks.
Approx. 1,600 civilians killed (including 1,000+ prisoners of war from France, Belgium, Netherlands and forced labourers, mainly Soviet)
The British soldiers that obeyed their orders and those who lost their lives should be respected. The victims of the raid should be remembered likewise. The task itself and the celebrated success is questionable - today it would surely be considered as a violation of the Geneva Convention.
My two cents
Martin
8 aircraft (out of 19) crashed or shot down, 53 aircrew killed, 3 aircrew taken prisoner making about 40 percent of the strength of the attacking force.
2 dams breached, 1 dam lightly damaged - effects of the damages were back to normal within about five weeks.
Approx. 1,600 civilians killed (including 1,000+ prisoners of war from France, Belgium, Netherlands and forced labourers, mainly Soviet)
The British soldiers that obeyed their orders and those who lost their lives should be respected. The victims of the raid should be remembered likewise. The task itself and the celebrated success is questionable - today it would surely be considered as a violation of the Geneva Convention.
My two cents
Martin
NickM
A Fixture
Lets keep a sense of perspective here when citing the Geneva Convention. The target of Operation Chastise was the German war industry. It was intended to cripple a regime that had invaded most of Europe, was exterminating millions of Jews and had no qualms about brutalizing, enslaving or exterminating their Slavic neighbours. I'm sure there's a paragraph or two in the Geneva Convention devoted to those kinds of activities...
I get where you're coming from, mate, the civilian cost was high. However, I for one am grateful for whatever part this RAF operation, and any others, played in ridding Europe of Nazi Germany.
When we get to discussing what those nasty RAF bombers did to Germany,perhaps we could save a thought to something dear to me. God bless what the dambusters did both in economic and emotional terms. It may just have saved the lives of a few more British Seamen and other seafarers (civilians) who perished going to Russia to provide supplies for the Russians to help them fight a German invasian. Just like they lost their lives providing aid to quite a few other countries invaded by Germany.
I must add here that Merchant Ships were unarmed, so initial sinkings by U-Boats was illegal but lets not worry about the women and children as well as the sailors who perished, perhaps they dont count in your list of numbers.
If you have an axe to grind then please take it up with your leaders (oh no you cant, they are dead) not with the RAF.
By the way I have some good friends who are German and all former military, they didnt blame me let alone former military personnel. Have also been on exercise in Germany and had a few beers with Panzer Grenadiers all great guys who respected us as we did them and the Dutch Marines also involved.
Its 2013, get a life mate!!!!!!!!!
Don
I must add here that Merchant Ships were unarmed, so initial sinkings by U-Boats was illegal but lets not worry about the women and children as well as the sailors who perished, perhaps they dont count in your list of numbers.
If you have an axe to grind then please take it up with your leaders (oh no you cant, they are dead) not with the RAF.
By the way I have some good friends who are German and all former military, they didnt blame me let alone former military personnel. Have also been on exercise in Germany and had a few beers with Panzer Grenadiers all great guys who respected us as we did them and the Dutch Marines also involved.
Its 2013, get a life mate!!!!!!!!!
Don
Martin64
A Fixture
In general I agree to your point Nick. My goal was just to keep a sense of perspective when these kind of actions are celebrated today. The Geneva Convention was violated by all parties of this war and ironically after the war - influenced by the winners - it was added that actions that deprive civilian population of food, water, housing etc are regarded as a violation. Before WW 2 it was not mentioned specifically but at that time obviously nobody imagined that civilian population could become a target of military operations. The target of Operation Chastise was to damage water and electricity supply of the Ruhr-region - including drowning of people (breaking the morale). The majority of the victims were Non-Germans and their POW-camps hardly escaped the extensive aerial recognition in advance of the operation. I think that the victims deserve to be remembered in a respectful manor like the soldiers that risked their lives when celebrating that event today. As a German I include the German victims also but that is of course up to me.
My post was not meant as an accusation and I have several good friends in former "enemy-countries". Therefore no need to get another life - we could have met either if you would have visited the German Paras.
So enjoy the celebration and ignore my post if you like.
Cheers, Martin
Martin your post was not one to be ignored nor would I ignore your very valid points.
You mentioned the death of "civilians" and mention 1600 French, Dutch, Belgian and mostly Soviets (forced labourers). My point to you is that were these well paid well fed people on a 16-30 holiday. Were they enjoying themselves or were they most likely to be shot if they stopped working? gain I point not to the people of Germany but their leaders.
Had the war not been started by Germany those people would not have been there, neither would the RAF Bomber Command...I rest my case.
Strangely a few chaps I know were in your Paras and very proud of being so. I also have other friends in Germany had holidays there and have sat having a beer and even stayed in the house of a former SS soldier. He was a rather good friend.
Don
You mentioned the death of "civilians" and mention 1600 French, Dutch, Belgian and mostly Soviets (forced labourers). My point to you is that were these well paid well fed people on a 16-30 holiday. Were they enjoying themselves or were they most likely to be shot if they stopped working? gain I point not to the people of Germany but their leaders.
Had the war not been started by Germany those people would not have been there, neither would the RAF Bomber Command...I rest my case.
Strangely a few chaps I know were in your Paras and very proud of being so. I also have other friends in Germany had holidays there and have sat having a beer and even stayed in the house of a former SS soldier. He was a rather good friend.
Don
Martin64
A Fixture
Don, let`s stop it here. Just for the sake of correctness: The casualties among the POW`s and forced labourers were up to more than 1000 out of 1600 victims. All I feel is that they should be remembered as well when this event is celebrated today and that the operation at that time possibly had to be declared as a great success to justify the severe losses among the aircrews and maybe as well in respect of Britain`s Allies. I wonder how descendants of the POW`s and forced labourers feel if they read this thread. - Maybe my fault - so put the blame on me.
Martin
No way Martin, I am just now seeing where you were coming from and indeed I agree with your sentiments.
I have a great respect for the fallen no matter who they were and where from. Born and brought up right next to a place said to have been a POW camp but a cemetary nearby had the resting places of several POW and I have to say the graves were very well looked after all the time.
OK its a truce mate, we agree that noone really won but sadly many many people dies on every side.
Don
I have a great respect for the fallen no matter who they were and where from. Born and brought up right next to a place said to have been a POW camp but a cemetary nearby had the resting places of several POW and I have to say the graves were very well looked after all the time.
OK its a truce mate, we agree that noone really won but sadly many many people dies on every side.
Don
NickM
A Fixture
Thanks for clarifying, Martin. On this, we can all agree.
I too deeply regret the loss of those innocent German civilians whom were unaware of the crimes their nation was committing. May they RIP as well.
