Confederate Cav Trooper 1864 75mm Ellies Miniatures

[ellie]

Gary forgive me but which part of the figure is inaccurate? just thought I would ask, seen as the equipment and clothing were taken from photos of the real thing. and was run past some very knowledgeable people who have collections of the real equipment and clothing . but I seem to have forgotten that everyone in that period looked like a film star and did not have a bit of a belly. and had pristine uniforms towards the end of the war.

I don't think I got your comment wrong when you say it's inaccurate, I just wanted to make sure my response was accurate. it's lucky for us that other people think it's fine or we would have wasted Diego's time and the companies time and money.

Here is the art work we took our inspiration from, just to show that we take what we do seriously.

Thanks for your comment but on the this occasion we will have to differ.

Ian

www.elliesminiatures.com

 

[Huw63]

I for one think it's got a certain character and swagger about it and really like it though it's outside my normal period of interest.

Cheers

Huw

 

[ellie]

Thanks Huw glad you like it.

Cheers

ian

www.elliesminiatures.com

 

[garyjd]

I'm pretty convinced the "artwork" looks like a photograph of a Civil War reenactor that has been Photoshopped to look like a painting. I've seen other photographers do this with photos of reenactors. While there are reenactors that have first rate "impressions" this is not one of them IMO. Nothing wrong to agree to disagree with one another.

Check out these other images. they appear to be all reenactors by the same artist/photographer.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ran...EwjxgYm1l6HMAhXL5SYKHYa4CogQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.25

 

[ellie]

Cheers Gary yes we got the art work from the net but we did have other people look at it and they said drop the shoulder holster and it would be fine for a late war cav trooper. if something is wrong in your opinion could you please PM me and we can have a good look at what you might think is wrong.

As you say it's fine to have defiance of opinions it's healthy but we will stand by our decision to go with it. but thank you for giving me the link to a very good site some very interesting stuff on their.

Cheers

ian

www.elliesminiatures

 

[Babelfish]

If it is "inaccurate", surely it makes more sense to explain exactly why, rather than just say "it's inaccurate". That way people can make their minds up as to whether the "inaccuracies" are something they can live with when deciding whether or not to part with their wedge.

I'd also be willing to bet that - just like models - some re-enactors are more "accurate" than others, rather than all being hopelessly "inaccurate" by default.

Either way it still looks good to me with bags of character, and I look forward to seeing the figure 'in the resin'.

- Steve

 

[ellie]

Cheers Steve and thank you, you are right when we do these masters a lot of thought and cross referencing goes on it's not just ok I like that lets do it. I have asked on here for advice with some projects that we have done and the help has been great.

For our Franco Prussian war range we Contacted the Military Museum in Paris about the uniforms and the Leeds royal Armories' for the riles and my own personal collection of bayonets and equipment from the 2nd empire plus the art works of the time. so we do our research so if it's wrong then we are only human and we make mistakes.

But I can assure all our customers that that we stand by our research and our sculptors to bring you the most accurate figure/bust we can. I should not have to defend our figures on a post that does not even give the reason why it's wrong just a photo of a reenactor. we posted the art work it was based on. and will say again this was looked at by people who have in my opinion a very good knowledge of the subject and they all said it was fine for a late in the war veteran confederate Trooper.

To those customers who have pre ordered this rest assured you will be very happy with him he looks great. we are about two weeks away from the launch.

Again I wish to thank all the people involved in bringing this master to life, and a big thank you to Diego for doing such a fantastic job on him.

Kind regards

Ian

www.elliesminiaturers.com

 

[Nap]

Hi Guys ,

As you might know I don't do legs .....but this is very tempting , it's a cracking character , IMO nothing to not like from the pose to that rather full tummy ....

Good sculpting it's going to feature in many a competition for sure

Nap

 

[Martin64]

Followed the discussion with interest. Looking at the reference picture I realize what a fine sculptor Diego is - he translated the picture so nicely into his sculpt! On the other hand I am slightly confused to learn that the figure shall represent a veteran trooper of the late war period. As far as I know living conditions in the South in the late war period were quite poor due to the Union blockade so well fed veteran soldiers were surely rare like hen`s teeth.
Here is an interesting picture of Southern Cavalrymen as POW`s in 1863. The real people - not reenactors and of course no film stars

That said I think that the model still can depict a reenactor in a humorous way if you go with the image above.
Being far from an expert on ACW I recommend this interesting article about our topic and realism with reenactors where the picture is taken from.
http://www.valhallastablesvirginia.com/calvary

Cheers, Martin

 

[ellie]

Cheers Martin

Thank you for the photo as you say these are prisoners of war so the thinness of them is expected. but a lot of the cavalry lived off the land and scavenged what food they could get were ever they found it. who are we to say that they might not have been lucky enough to have been well fed and watered and have a bit of a belly. and don't forget they could be drinking beer, rye whiskey and we all know too much of the amber nectar can cause a bit of a belly too.

Still our figure seems to have got people talking about it

cheers

Ian

www.elliesminiatures.com

 

[Martin64]

Hi Ian,
the ACW is well covered by photographs. I once took the chance to salvage two voluminous books "Photographic History of the Civil War" from being dumped. Running through the pages try to find original photos of chubby people from that time. I guess Mc Donalds, Pizza Hut or else weren`t that available back then - not to speak of the hardships of campaigning.
Even if you were lucky when foraging there were a lot of other days and it was surely difficult to build up weight - or keep your weight.

The picture above is most probably taken not long after these soldiers surrendered. Some of them are still carrying their water bottles. If you look at other pictures taken from POW`s of the ACW the men don`t carry any equipment at the Prison Camp.

Still our figure seems to have got people talking about it

Good for you and I hope it will support the marketing of your product.
Cheers, Martin

 

[ellie]

Hi Martin seem to me that it's wrong to have a figure with a little bit of a belly on them, or use art work for the bases of a figure with out getting into a debate about should they be thin or fat or what ever.

we will take on board what has been said and posted and we will try and do better next time.

Ian

www.elliesminiatures.com

 

[Babelfish]

Strikes me that this thread is turning into a pissing contest now.

Striving for "accuracy" is fine, but the further back in history you go the more "gaps" there are and thus the more room for interpretation. That is a fact.

You can quote "photographic evidence" until you're blue in the face, but the bottom line is that only a tiny fraction of soldiers, equipment, vehicles or whatever from any given conflict since the advent of photography has ever been photographed, so it's daft to start claiming that on the basis of "photographic evidence", this or that couldn't possibly have happened, or that everyone in such-and-such a war looked like this or that. And to make a sweeping statement that no soldier in the Confederate army could possibly have had a bit of a belly on him because times were hard strikes me as absurd.

Photos are a very useful reference tool without a doubt - as far as they go. But they are not the "last word".

My take is that if it's within the bounds of possibility (not even probability), it's fair game.

You like it, you buy it. Otherwise just give it a swerve. It aint rocket science!

- Steve

 

[ellie]

I totally agree steve and thank you for getting to the point. I have to be a professional as I can with Reponses to statements even though I feel like saying a lot more. as you say don't like it then pass it by. some times I wish I had a time machine that would solve it all.

cheers

Ian

www.ellesminiatures.com

 

[Trex]

Humans don't come out from a mold ,every person on earth is born different.
Therefore, unless the sculptor depicts a specific person, he is free to improvise within sensible limits.
One might think a "beer belly" during war time makes a figure inaccurate, others may think it makes it interesting.
IMHO taking body "measurements" into the realms of historical accuracy, falls a little into the "rivet counting" category.

 

[Colin_Fraser]

Humans don't come out from a mold ,every person on earth is born different.
Therefore, unless the sculptor depicts a specific person, he is free to improvise within sensible limits.
One might think a "beer belly" during war time makes a figure inaccurate, others may think it makes it interesting.
IMHO taking body "measurements" into the realms of historical accuracy, falls a little into the "rivet counting" category.

I knew "that" term would come up. Anytime someone makes a critical or questioning comment on a release's accuracy he is called a rivet counter. I am sure the critical comments were made in good conscience with no intent of damaging sales and I sincerely doubt they will negatively impact them....at least this thread has stayed live and not been pushed down by other more recent releases. That has to be good exposure for Ellies.

Bravo to Ian in handling what must be a frustrating situation in a professional and gentlemanly manner.

 

[Trex]

I think you took my comment wrong Colin, probably my mistake since I'm not a native speaker.
I wasn't calling anybody anything and being an aircraft and armor modeler myself, I am a rivet counter too sometimes.
It all depends on how well you know or you've researched your model details.

But my point was that body shape is not like rivets to count when we talk about a generic figure.
Of the so many confederate soldiers at 1864, one could have been "chubby", couldn't it?
Who can proove that there was none?

 

[Colin_Fraser]

I think you took my comment wrong Colin, probably my mistake since I'm not a native speaker.
I wasn't calling anybody anything and being an aircraft and armor modeler myself, I am a rivet counter too sometimes.
It all depends on how well you know or you've researched your model details.

But my point was that body shape is not like rivets to count when we talk about a generic figure.
Of the so many confederate soldiers at 1864, one could have been "chubby", couldn't it?
Who can proove that there was none?

I understand now Trex. Thanks.

In the past recent the term "rivet counter" has been used as a form of abuse or derision towards those making accuracy comments on PF. So that is what I read into it.

Thanks

 

[ellie]

Trex, Colin Thank you for your posts. Colin yes it has been a little frustrating but I have tried to explain our thinking behind the figure. we are trying to be a little different and give the painter a different view of the human body. as Trex says "every person on earth is born different." and that is the point we are not all slim athletic looking. ( I wish I was 30 years younger LOL).

Every one is entitled to their opinion and I welcome constructive criticism but their comes a point when things get a little bit over the top. I for one are sure that people in the later years of the war still had the large body shape ( maybe the lucky ones who were not starved in the prison camps. their were bands of confederate cav that did very well indeed Nathern Bedford forest squadron, Mosbys raiders and i'm sure many others . did a great job of raiding and surviving very well in what they were doing.

still it has caused a debate even if it has taken it away from the release of a new figure. lets hope we see some over weight Naps, Victorians, Ancient's & medieval figures in the future. different is good, and lets the sculptor be more creative .

Cheers

Ian

www.elliesminiatures.com

 

[Gaudin]

I feel it is most certainly good to depict real humans, not only glorified hero proportions. The hobby has evolved to mature stage where it is welcomed.

It is also healthy to question and discuss what could have been most accurate depiction. As long as it is done in a spirit of what unites us -passion for history.