Counterfeit figures

[gordy]

From our end we have reported the copyrighted items to Ebay and received a generic reply that it will be evaluated. We have also initiated proceedings using the Ebay Vero system (this past week) so we will see where that takes us.

It does infringe our copyright as the masters are owned by ourselves. Besides recasting of items, they are also using copyright images of the boxart.

This has been our first encounter with counterfeit products from our range. We have written to the person with a cease and desist.

Are recasts presented and boxed like an original ? If so, a certificate of authenticity packaged with a figure would be costly and circumvented so this option is not likley unfortunately.

BUT unfortunately, there are still many modellers who still purchase from these people, as can be seen from the high ratings they have on Ebay.

Here is the crux of the matter, just like email spam for viagra, there is a consumer base, are these consumers of recasts truly duped or knowingly purchasing a recast?

We are willing to initiate a concerted effort with all other manufacturers to put a stop to it. We feel that the way to stop this is for all manufacturers to stand together. In this way Ebay would have to acknowledge the problem if we present a united front.

Just toying with ideas to stop these recasters ....

There may not be a simple panacea to this problem, do ebay have any tools or utilities to integrate with external websites for a ``reporting counterfeiter '' that would aut-generate a list of known recasters? I'm not a ebay user myself so I uneducated in that arena.

A good start would be for manufactures to clearly educate the masses on how to spot fakes, as an example this links demonstrates how to spot fake Gibson Les Paul guitars:
http://www.lespaulguide.com/how-to-spot-fakes.php

Even better idea:
http://reviews.ebay.com/How-to-spot...0001322912?ssPageName=BUYGD:CAT:-1:LISTINGS:5

I'm open for more suggestions and will offer up hosting pages on planetFigure for dealing with counterfeiting and recasting.

all the best,
gordy

 

[Cheesey153]

Maybe the printed media has a role to play? Maybe they should all run monthly warnings about the problem of illegal recasts and illegitimate sales. After all, they receive much revenue from advertisments placed by manufacturers and it's in the magazines' interest that these same manufacturers aren't forced out of business by copyright thieves....

 

[Robin]

The trick here is how do we go about stopping it as ebay do not seem capable or interested in doing so.

Talking over at TB we came up with an idea of a kite mark, an authenticity mark as it were , that if you see this on a site or auction you know you can buy with confidence. We also decided that it was the best thing to go to initially some of the other online communities IE PlanetFigure and Timelines to run this as a partnership, going to others once we got it up and running.

This idea is in a very early stages and we would like to know if the idea of this mark, once all the wrinkles have been ironed out would be a good idea and would be used, there is a fair amount or work involved in making this concept happen. So before we bore off doing it we would like the feedback here and at TB, this text has been posted there too except for the odd change to explain better.

So having had a quick exchange of email with Gordy we would like to know what you think, is it a good idea or not?

Robin

 

[Tecumsea]

Hi Robin,

How will the Kite Mark work? not sure I understand the concept. Will it be displayed by the retailer? and how? who will own and authorise it?

Hi Matt ...it will be interesting to see what progress you make with Ebay, it is my view that the action has to come from those owning the rights to the property. It would be a good opportunity for you to discuss this with Pegaso and Andrea at Euro, maybe a concerted effort from a group of Manufacturers would have more weight with Ebay..unfortunately current market conditions play into the hands of the counterfeiters and as a consequence Ebay. Have you thought of using the modelling Media? maybe a joint letter from the manufacturers published in the modelling press and brought to Ebays attention would be an avenue?
Ebay have always maintained in some high profile cases against them that it is impossible for them to police the site for copies..I agree with this defence but they have no excuse for ignoring counterfeit goods when they are brought to their notice by both manufacturers and consumers.

See you at Euro,

Keith

 

[Jamie Stokes]

I think we may be overlooking a challenge

"Re-casters will simply shut down one name, and pop up with another on EBay, with the tenacity of weeds"

I agree, we should make efforts to stop them by either not buying from them or assisting in shutting them down.

I support the idea that legitimate traders be listed here. That will help us support the good guys, and any casual browsers will know where to start shopping.

This is something we can do here; asking, verifying and supporting good guys, as well as perhaps making opportunity for new suppliers to be verified (so long as they conform to industry standards)

To focus on shutting down re-casters while not supporting the good guys, to me at least, is an unbalanced approach.

I nominate Empire Hobbies, Australia as a good guy (and a damn fine couple to have lunch with! )


(I'll climb down off my high horse now........)

Cheers

 

[tonydawe]

I'd certainly support Jamie's nomination there.

As I see it, price will always be the key reason for recasters and their customers to do what they do. Why pay $100 for a Pegaso kit when you can get a knock-off version for $20 on ebay? It's simple pirate economics.

If producers don't or can't protect their intellectual property and enforce their rights, then those rights will inevitably be stolen, especially if there's a profit to be made. It's wrong and it's illegal but it's also the basis for the growth in the Japanese economy in the 1950's and 60's and the Chinese economy over the past 20 years.

I'm not defending the recasters at all, but frankly I think we're fighting a losing battle if we expect to eliminate the practice of recasting by appealing to people's higher principles. So long as there is a profit to be made from recasting, the practice will continue and there's nothing Ebay, Planet Figure or any of the major manufactuers can do to stop it.

There are two things that could be done; neither of which are practical.

1. Hunt down and prosecute/ kill all recasters;

2. Get the manufacturers to lower their prices and remove the financial incentive to produce and buy recast figures.

When a single 54mm white metal or resin figure costs $40-$50, there will always be a commercial incentive to look for a cheaper alternative, and since it costs so little to cast a figure at home, the profit margins are huge.

Making these figures cheaper would also encourage kids to buy more figures with their pocket money. When I was a kid I could buy a Tamiya figure set every week with the few bucks I made doing chores around the house. Today, you'd be lucky to buy a new figure or bust for less than $50, and in many cases two or three times that much.

It's no wonder most of the people in our hobby are middle-aged men with jobs. We're the only people who can afford to pay the prices for these figures.

OK, my rant is over now. I hope I made some sense.

 

[gordy]

Here are the recommended countermeasures thus far with added caveats:

Database of Good and Evil:
What if this database gets abused?
What if one good seller wants to damage the reputation of another good seller, by sock-puppeting or astro-turfing his competition negatively?
What if a good seller goes unrecognized and files a grievance because his good status was over looked?
Who is responsible for disputes on reputations?
Who is liable for libel or slander?

Certificate of authenticity:
How much would this cost a producer?
How would it be validated?

Educate the Public on Spotting Counterfeits:
Who would write these?
Where would they be compiled?

Maming and Dis-Membering Recasters
Illegal in most countries.

Pirating, sadly is a part of life and these pirates would not be in business if there was not a consumer-base to keep them in business, like the email spam I mentioned before. These cretins would not put forth the effort to recast if there was no benefit. That is the heart of the matter.

A Database of Good and Evil, while attractive, would be only as good as it is updated, these recasters are too ephemeral with the ease of setting up an online shop and hocking their warez. Monthly media or quarterly is much to slow to stay on top of this for that very reason.

With a nomadic shop, recasters get taken down and another or the same crops back up with a fresh new account and starts all over, there is little we, Ebay or anyone can do.

Sure, doing something is a noble endeavor it still doesn't kill the market for it, i.e. THE BUYER the level of effort to maintain a database is high while the yield is low.

The best suggestion I can offer is a bit of both, a database on how to identify counterfeited products , certified and co-authored by manufacturers, a list of articles used that can be referenced by people to identify whether or not what they are purchasing is a genuine product.

In parallel to that, maintain a buyer beware forum category where members can post messages alerting other members that a seller has dealt known counterfeits and recasts, this buy beware list can be fed automagically to participating forums, The Basement, Timelines etc via RSS feeds so a single source could replicate to other sources.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[Robin]

Hi Robin,

How will the Kite Mark work? not sure I understand the concept. Will it be displayed by the retailer? and how? who will own and authorise it?

The seller whatever they be retailer, sole traders, reseller will display the mark, with the check of that being linked back into a website where there details can be verified.

Own it, it will be ran hopefully by a conglomerate of forums/websites all working for the same thing, as this is a big job and needs full coverage

The conglomerate will authorise it, after checking with the manufacturers etc.... it s very early yet and Gordy and I are looking to see if its worth doing the work to set this up or not.

Robin

 

[stu]

Hi,

For me the major problem here seams to be ebay. the kite mark system could be very good but would need to be registered with e bay so that they recognise it, and the buisness seller is registered to sell such products.

This becomes difficult for everybody who wants to resell their grey army/horde. What are they to do ?.

Recasting used to be small but now it seams to be a buisness, if so ebay should recognise these buiness's esp if the manufacturers have complained.

Maybe our grey armies should be resold through these forums through some form of system, only an idea.

As a manufacturer I only hope it doesnt happen to me, but accept it will.

As to cost of figures, this would not change if recasters were not around. Figures cost so much because of costs incurred in production and the limited sales these days.

Dealers these days want 40% discount, if I was a dealer I too would want 40%. Work it out, if a figure costs £30 the dealer gets it for £18, I have to sculpt, mould, cast , deplug, throw away duff castings, package box, paint the figure, photograph it, print the pics, painting instructions and then promote it. Do you think I get 40%.

It is not easy anymore, I personally love the buzz from the hobby and my little buisness thats why I do it. I take a chance on every figure I produce and that is the same for all manufacturers. I would love to produce some very diverse subjects but when you look at the sales is it worth it, then a recaster comes along once I've deleted said subject and its a collectors item and he cash's in.

E bay is the problem as it gives the recaster a point of sale.

Stuart

 

[Tecumsea]

Tony/Gordy I agree with everything you have said, the chance of elimination is nigh on impossible and there are legal complications implicit in producing lists of "Good dealers" thereby restricting trade.
I applaud Robins attempt to provide a solution but remain pessimistic about the viability of such a scheme, I have a subtantial grey army, should I wish to sell some on Ebay who verifies me ?and will it make a scrap of difference whether I am or not? if I have something someone wants there will be a customer waiting. If I sell something that is not as described Ebay will refund the purchaser.
I suggest,
1) let the manufacturers combine to carry the case forward-it is their property
2) We support the manufacturers by continuing to police Ebay
3) Keep the forums alive with this sort of debate to flag up the dangers to members.

Keith

 

[Robin]

1) let the manufacturers combine to carry the case forward-it is their propertyKeith

Yeah we could do that but as they slow;y get disheartened all we will do is perpetuate the cycle, companies will close, the number of new models will slow and the ones they did have on release will be pirated

2) We support the manufacturers by continuing to police EbayKeith

This is a great idea, but what effect does it have , how many of us have reported say Toy in in China or the guy in Brazil, still there still going, the thing here though is that you can only police something if you have the power to do something about it, theres no real power in just telling Ebay about it no matter how often we do it, still needs doing though

3) Keep the forums alive with this sort of debate to flag up the dangers to members.Keith

For me that's where the idea of education comes in, lets educate people, what to look for and what not...

Interesting debate and if I am honest it always is, the debate on Recasters, isn't time we really tried to do something about it though to protect the hobby.

Robin

 

[elgreco]

Further to this discussion, we think that before any more is said about a kitemark, etc., there must first and foremost be a coordinated effort among us manufacturers to bring this issue to light as much as possible by:

1. sharing information about known recasters/possibly dubious customers who may/have re-cast kits;
2. consult each other on what efforts each has done when confronted with this issue, if steps were ever taken and what was the outcome;
3. "educate" the modeller by showing the high costs involved in producing a master. It is easy to say that manufacturers must reduce their prices to compete with the recaster - but why should we? We are all trying to make an honest living out of this and then we are asked to bend over backwards to accommodate these crooks? At the end of the day these recasters need us, the manufacturers, for them to have something to copy. If we're non-existant, their little business falls through.

We think that if we, manufacturers and traders, start off and coordinate together to put a stop to this, we can then gradually through all our grouped contacts, be able to expand this to the international retailers/manufacturers, also with the help of the forums.

Modellers who inadvertently purchased re-cast items, could provide us with information as regards to the seller and all this will be treated confidentially - no one needs to know who bought what. We would be interested to know what the quality is like, packaging, source and any other relevant information. No one should feel uncomfortable in providing this information - it can only help others to avoid such pitfalls and help provide us with leads and solutions.

As manufacturers we need to know who these recasters are - we only know of a handful ourselves. But we would be make a point to share information provided with local and international traders and manufacturers and even provide it to moderators / administrators / editors of publications. We need to pool information, that's imperative!

We are curious to know also whether this problem is also common to other areas of the hobby - wargaming, roleplay, planes, tanks and all.

Keep comments and ideas coming but we think that it is up to us the manufacturers/traders to take these first steps.

Cheers
Matt

 

[Tecumsea]

Hi Matt,

I agree with you 100% the lead needs to come from the Manufacturers supported by the modelling fraternity.
I gave Robin on Thursday night a Romeo and Pegaso kit purchased from Argentina. He will be bringing them to Euro so either he or I can let you see them.
I think the Kite mark idea has been dropped but there still needs to be a concerted effort to increase awareness of the existance of these things-a database of reliable producers and traders seems to be the way forward.
Keith

 

[yellowcat]

Hi Keith,
I think the best is to educate our fellow figure painters/modellers the poor quality of a counterfeit figure looks like.

 

[gordy]

Like Felix said, the best way is to see a quality comparison.

Excellent points, Matt, to start I'll create a forum that will be exclusive to exposing piracy to include the following:

• Lists of known re-casters
• Members can post spotted re-casters from sources like eBay
• Manufacturers can post images of pieces to validate authenticity
• Manufacturers can talk with other manufactures / traders
• Members can describe how to spot fakes

This piracy forum would require the input of traders, manufacturers and members to be full realized.

All areas of planetFigure are accessible via RSS, so what information goes into this piracy forum can be exported to other figure forums, e.g. The Basement, Timelines, etc. (I can provide assistance on setting that up if the administrators of those forums need info)

Does everyone feel comfortable with this proposal ?

 

[elgreco]

On the whole it's a brilliant idea to have a separate Piracy Forum.

However it might be best to refrain from giving:

[*]Lists of known re-casters
This would only give publicity to re-casters. The list should be widely circulated to all traders / manufacturers / forum administrators / magazine editors. Then if anyone has a query about a dubious individual, they could send a PM/e-mail to any of these. Gradually the modeller will build up their own lost of re-casters without this being publicised;


[*]Members can post spotted re-casters from sources like eBay
Any members spotting re-casters should inform one of the trusted forums / traders / etc. who will then circulate the information to the rest of the group.

Just our opinion on the above.

From our part we will start encouraging all our suppliers to partake in this forum and join in as much as possible to give their input, experiences, etc.

 

[gordy]

Good points Matt, limiting the visibility would be a keen idea and not granting any due, additional exposure to piracy is the best practice.

 

[Figurini]

Excellent idea

I'll shock you but with pictures and mail address, I will buy directly to the countrefeits....

I laughed a half because since 1 or 2 years I have noticed a marked deterioration of quality casting from Andrea, Soldiers, Ares miniatures, Latorre, Alexandros models, knight models... and some others manufacters. I am very disappointed and am obliged to complain to change a bad piece (I'll say very bad casting like holes, enormous line join, sanding...) or request the missing piece. It's the most difficult with Alexandro models andknight models : NO CHANGE = poor ethics.

Celine from Elgreco know this problem : what is the rate of return from these manufactors ?
so why complain that buyers are turning away kit too expensive relative to their poor quality ? and purchased them at fair value from recaster.

Now I buy only original from PEGASO and ROMEO MODELS : never disappointed and very commercial.

ciao a Italia

 

[elgreco]

Celine from Elgreco know this problem : what is the rate of return from these manufactors ?

Sorry for asking - but what problem? (And who are you?) We have had 0 returns for these kits. We have never received complaints about kits from Alexandros Models, Knight Models, Ares Mythologic (which we stock). And if there ever was a problem with any kit, Ares and Knight Models have always provided good service and replacement parts/kits if necessary. We have never had complaints for Alexandros Models. If you bought any of the kits from us, please send us a personal message.

We do not stock Andrea, Soldiers, Latorre.

What you say is a contradiction because if the original casting is bad from a manufacturer, the counterfeit copy should be even worse. An interesting input!!

 

[jknaus]

I have one question about kite marks. If someone is counterfeiting wouldn't they just copy the mark?

I still think a list of good sellers would help.

My 2 cents

James