Counterfeit figures

[stu]

Wow, cheaper figures, I'll ask my suppliers for cheaper resin and rubber, see if carl and moz will sculpt for me as a favour cos I've known them a long time, only degas for a second or two so I make sure their are plenty of air bubbles, let the mould slip so I get some wicked distortion.

Before you know it I'm producing recast quality and all in a bag,,, so but if Carlsberg did model figures,,,,,

Joking aside , figures cost more because of increased costs and lower sales. Lower sales has been happening for years so recasters are not forcing up prices.I dont sit there working out whether recasterman is going to impact on my profit.

Our figures are costing more because you the customer wants more, you want better quality, more finesse, more realism. Unfortunately more costs and we as manufacturers have provided this for you, the recaster hasn't, you get all our hard work in the figure and pay alot for a crap casting.

recasting wont stop, but please dont think manufacturers are coining it in.

Stuart

 

[yellowcat]

I agree with Tony that the figure is way too expensive these days. When I started out in the early eighties, a 90mm metal foot figure cost $22 and a mounted one $50. Nowadays a single figure cost $120 and $280 for a mounted one and a 1/9 bust $80. When comparing to a garage kit, a 1/6 scale figure cost between $60 to $120 and a 1/4 bust $60. I still don't understand why the historical figure kit cost so much.
The manufactures keep informing the modelers that their figures are better quality, superior in detail and casting these led to high cost. I don't think so. To these days, I can't find one manufacture that can match Ray Lamb's Poste Militarie or Richard Almond's Almond's Almond Sculptures for casting quality and detail. Not Pegaso, not Andrea.
If the manufactures keep raising their prices, in about ten or twenty years from now there won't be any business for them because the average age of the majority modelers will be in their sixties and eighties.

 

[gordy]

Nowadays a single figure cost $120 and $280 for a mounted one and a 1/9 bust $80. When comparing to a garage kit, a 1/6 scale figure cost between $60 to $120 and a 1/4 bust $60

Now are those prices a generalization or are they the high end of their category? $120 for a single? Perhaps if they were cast in 24K gold and hand delivered by Ray Lamb!

What does the average 54mm single figure cost?

 

[elgreco]

What does the average 54mm single figure cost?

From the ranges that we stock (and they're quite a few, the cost of a 54mm is between £16.00-£28.00. The higher end figure would cost as much probably because it would have additional scenery included. When people compare prices to the average prices of the 80s, we are spanning 20 years - have salaries and wages stayed the same as in the 80s?

 

[gordy]

Exactly my point, Matt!

 

[Andrew Craft]

Hi all,
As a newcomer to the hobby I can say that sometimes it's difficult for people with limited experience in the hobby to spot these fakes. The only way for me to buy figures is from the internet dealers. My nearest model shop is 200km away and they only have very limited stock as far as figures go, and i'm sure there are others in the same kind of situation. I have bought the majority of my figures from SK miniatures in the UK and only went to Steve in the first place because of posts on planet figure recommending him (and I fully agree with what they said, Steve goes above and beyond to help in anyway he can).
I think if we can't post a list of genuine or recast dealers other newcomers may fall for the poorer products. They all look the same in the pics on the net.

What I think is needed is a list of things to look for when buying figures. As a newbie I have only found three things that warn me of knock-off figures,

1. Price, if the price is way off compared to the same product listed with other dealers and the item is listed by a company with lots of similar products alarm bells start ringing (private sellers thinning their grey army tend not to have hundreds of other products)

2. Boxes, if the product doesn't come in an original box it can be another sign (again some private sellers may have lost the box or it has been ruined but as stated earlier they generally wont have hundreds of similar items for sale).

3. Numbers 1 and 2 combined plus an eBay or internet store (I don't think many private sellers would start a store on eBay or other sites just to sell a few of their figures).

With my limited knowledge of the hobby I have probably missed lots of things, but that's why we need a checklist. Hopefully you will help add to this list if you think of anything and maybe if we can get it completed we can post it in a seperate thread somewhere.

Cheers,
Andrew.

 

[yellowcat]

Now are those prices a generalization or are they the high end of their category? $120 for a single? Perhaps if they were cast in 24K gold and hand delivered by Ray Lamb!

What does the average 54mm single figure cost?

Actually they are average prices for a Pegaso 90mm metal figure. Please take a took at the US dealers online prices. These are their pricing. If they were cast in 24K gold and hand delivered by Ray Lamb they will cost more than that.

Nowadays the average price of a 90mm resin figure kit cost around $50 and a 54mm $35. What I don't understand when compare to a 1/6 scale 12 inch resin garage figure kit it cost about $80. The 12 inch resin garage kit uses 10 times more resin to produce. Both use silicone mold, same resin, same manufacturing process and packaging. So why is the historical figure kit cost so much.

 

[gordy]

Hi all,
As a newcomer to the hobby I can say that sometimes it's difficult for people with limited experience in the hobby to spot these fakes. The only way for me to buy figures is from the internet dealers. My nearest model shop is 200km away and they only have very limited stock as far as figures go, and i'm sure there are others in the same kind of situation. I have bought the majority of my figures from SK miniatures in the UK and only went to Steve in the first place because of posts on planet figure recommending him (and I fully agree with what they said, Steve goes above and beyond to help in anyway he can).
I think if we can't post a list of genuine or recast dealers other newcomers may fall for the poorer products. They all look the same in the pics on the net.

What I think is needed is a list of things to look for when buying figures. As a newbie I have only found three things that warn me of knock-off figures,

1. Price, if the price is way off compared to the same product listed with other dealers and the item is listed by a company with lots of similar products alarm bells start ringing (private sellers thinning their grey army tend not to have hundreds of other products)

2. Boxes, if the product doesn't come in an original box it can be another sign (again some private sellers may have lost the box or it has been ruined but as stated earlier they generally wont have hundreds of similar items for sale).

3. Numbers 1 and 2 combined plus an eBay or internet store (I don't think many private sellers would start a store on eBay or other sites just to sell a few of their figures).

With my limited knowledge of the hobby I have probably missed lots of things, but that's why we need a checklist. Hopefully you will help add to this list if you think of anything and maybe if we can get it completed we can post it in a seperate thread somewhere.

Cheers,
Andrew.

All good pointers Andrew

Actually they are average prices for a Pegaso 90mm metal figure. Please take a took at the US dealers online prices. These are their pricing. If they were cast in 24K gold and hand delivered by Ray Lamb they will cost more than that.

Nowadays the average price of a 90mm resin figure kit cost around $50 and a 54mm $35. What I don't understand when compare to a 1/6 scale 12 inch resin garage figure kit it cost about $80. The 12 inch resin garage kit uses 10 times more resin to produce. Both use silicone mold, same resin, same manufacturing process and packaging. So why is the historical figure kit cost so much.

Are the garage kits going through a dealer or direct?

The histo-fig and garage kit comparison is categorically differing, industrially. Taken further why is a 1/24 scale, prepainted and articulating, Clone Trooper in Wal Mart only $6?

 

[T50]

Seriously, I didn't know this was a multi-million dollar industry. If so, I want to
take a part in it. I want to make some serious money, guys. ;P

Many years ago, my wife showed me a Channel bag at a mall. It was like $3000 USD.
I said, "so where does $2700 go to. I see a bag that's worth only $300 here." (1/10 of value)
You see, this is why this industry gets hit by the counterfeiters big time.

When you see a figure that costs you $100, do you feel that the figure is only
worth $10? Alpine's 1/16 figure costs around $50 USD. Does anyone feel that
it's only worth $5-10? If your answer is "no", then this industry deserves no counterfeits.
If your answer is "yes", then you need to find other hobby that doesn't deal with
hand-made, hand-packaged goods.

I buy a lot of casting, packaging, office supplies from many different manufacturers
in different industries. They also need to get paid. They have been increasing the
price slowly but surely. And they tell me that's because their suppliers increased
the price on them. Now we are talking about a wide range of industries at this point.
You guys have a job, right? You all are part of these many industries out there keep
increasing the price on things. And you turn around and tell this small figure industry
that our prices are too high? We are all responsible for this vicious cycle, guys.

When a guy's job is about to be taken over by a cheaper oversea outsourcing,
should he be wondering, "hmm... maybe I was getting paid too much"????

A figure used to cost cheaper back in the days than it does now. Of course.
Let me ask you, how much did you make back in the days and how much now?
Are there anyone who makes the same salary as in 90s?
You make more money today than 80s and 90s. Cost of living went up as well.
And so the price of figures. What's the problem here?

 

[Figurini]

Are the garage kits going through a dealer or direct?

This is the true problem. The dealers are asking manufacturers for discounts on figures about 40-60% less. If the manufacturers do not discount, the retailers do not buy. Elgreco (and others like Best soldiers...best prices never seen ) : how much is margin on figures ?

I saw cost of recast figures exactly 40-60% less than the price of the original kit on retailers. So ..... this is not is the cost of resin or lead involved, but the MARGIN.

FIGURE HOBBY is a business for retailers not for manufacturers or recasters...

 

[T50]

This is the true problem. The dealers are asking manufacturers for discounts on figures about 40-60% less. If the manufacturers do not discount, the retailers do not buy. Elgreco (and others like Best soldiers...best prices never seen ) : how much is margin on figures ?

I saw cost of recast figures exactly 40-60% less than the price of the original kit on retailers. So ..... this is not is the cost of resin or lead involved, but the MARGIN.

FIGURE HOBBY is a business for retailers not for manufacturers or recasters...

Interesting, and yet good point. But you have to admit that most of the counterfeits are
made countries where the labor is dirt-cheap.
This is a small industry. But every player has its role and get paid.
Distributors do what they do best: distribute to many dealers and get their cut.
Dealers do what they do best: buy from distributors, sell modelers and get their cut.
And you have your MSRP there.

If a manufacturer would cut these 2 out of the equation, then it would have to
hire more employees and re-design its website to do the job. Also sales will suffer.
Hope you get the point.

 

[yellowcat]

All good pointers Andrew



Are the garage kits going through a dealer or direct?

The histo-fig and garage kit comparison is categorically differing, industrially. Taken further why is a 1/24 scale, prepainted and articulating, Clone Trooper in Wal Mart only $6?

The garage kits go through both a dealer and direct. My point is the histo-fig and garage kit they both use the same material and manufacturing process to produce the end product and yet the histo-fig is way more expensive. Some of the figure sculptors sculpt the master for both industries. I hope Augie Rodriguez he is a member here and also a member of the "clubhouse forum". He sculpts for both industries. He can gives us an insight a comparsion of both industries.

On the salary topic, I am making less now than what I made 20 years ago. The scale of the salary has not changed much but the cost of living is getting out of hand.

 

[gordy]

The garage kits go through both a dealer and direct. My point is the histo-fig and garage kit they both use the same material and manufacturing process to produce the end product and yet the histo-fig is way more expensive. Some of the figure sculptors sculpt the master for both industries. I hope Augie Rodriguez he is a member here and also a member of the "clubhouse forum". He sculpts for both industries. He can gives us an insight a comparsion of both industries.

On the salary topic, I am making less now than what I made 20 years ago. The scale of the salary has not changed much but the cost of living is getting out of hand.

It is most unfortunate to hear the latter.

To the former though, the industries each have their pricing scales and demographics.

On the other hand, additional points to consider are:

-exchange rates
-overseas shipping
-calibre (high profile sculptors cost more)
-limited runs

So a 54mm domestic histo-fig may cost $30 and a premium 54mm histo-fig overseas rates at $50

A mid-size Ford and a mid-size Mercedes are priced differently, no?

 

[Figurini]

If a manufacturer would cut these 2 out of the equation, then it would have to
hire more employees and re-design its website to do the job. Also sales will suffer.
Hope you get the point.

this is the same problem with agricultural products: fruits and vegetables than supermarkets multiply the price by 10. The direct sale market from farmers is not enough structured.

Manufacturers should agree and propose to sale figures of their competitors. They would control better the market and the price....have better margin , can hire more employees and propose more figures with quality.

 

[BobLff257]

But thats the point isn't it. Mr Counterfieter can afford to sell their booty 40-60% cheaper because they sell direct to the vender. They also don't have to fork out sculptor's fees, painter's fees, associated casting fees or encompase months of labour in sculpting and producing the figure. As regards the pre-assembled painted WalMart product, it is priced and manufactured to sell by the thousands, ecomomies of scale, not by the dozen.

Rob

 

[T50]

But thats the point isn't it. Mr Counterfieter can afford to sell their booty 40-60% cheaper because they sell direct to the vender. They also don't have to fork out sculptor's fees, painter's fees, associated casting fees or encompase months of labour in sculpting and producing the figure. As regards the pre-assembled painted WalMart product, it is priced and manufactured to sell by the thousands, ecomomies of scale, not by the dozen.

You are so correct!!!

 

[Tarok]

Educate the Public on Spotting Counterfeits:
Who would write these?

I'd be only too happy to write a comparative review between an original and a fake. The problem I have is sort of an ethical one - I'd actually have to support a counterfeiter and buy a fake.

 

[Meehan34]

The very first figure I bought (October 2008) was from eBay, it was a Pegaso and was priced really well compared to other online stores. I had to buy it and I thought it would be real, well it turned out to be fake (I didn't know for several months that it was fake). It came in a little white box and a color copy of the box art. Since I had never bought a figure before it didn't look suspicious at all so I built and painted it. I was very upset with Pegaso because the parts didn't fit like I felt they should and I had to use the face mask because the nose had an air bubble in it. It was also covered in seem lines. The whole thing was frustrating to me because I blamed Pegaso. When I wrote to another figure painter about the problems I had he asked for the link to the eBay add, he immediatley knew the seller and that it was a fake. A year later I bought the same figure from Pegaso and it was flawless, I was so angry at the re-caster for doing what he did because had I never found out that it was a fake I would never have bought anything from Pegaso. So it is a double threat, not only does the real company lose the original sale they could lose a customer for life for these often VERY poor reproductions.

 

[apoloydona]

hi. this is roberto, new in this forum.
i am not completely agree with you. long time ago i asked to an american company to design a 90mm scale model for me. i had to pay u$1500, so may be an sculptor receive same money from andrea or pegaso company. it means the same price for buying 10 or 20 90mm figures. i think that pegaso models (as example) sells hundreds of each model so i am convinced that highest prices do not deppends on their different cost of production. highest cost are for making a difference between an exclusive sculpture and a toy soldier. if they can put lower prices then may be recasters will dissapear. have a nice day.

 

[renarts]

Gordy, et al
As a side note $10 in 1972 equals $51.30 in 2009
10 pounds in 1972 equals 98 pounds in 2009

The reason I picked 1972 as a source date is that was when I was getting into buying models and figures and where most of my allowance and job money was going.