Fighting with cloak and cape or similar.

[Uruk-Hai]

Hello fellows!

I see a lot of figures from bronze age to late iron age being sculpted with capes. But for me it seems very unpractical if not dangerous to fight wearing a cape, the bigger the more problems. Especially in a shield wall or a testudo? Im not that knowledgable in all eras but in norse references there are mentioning of taking off the cape when going to battle.

What are your thoughts about it?

Cheers
Janne Nilsson

 

[DEL]

Completely agree with you Janne.
There is no practical advantage I can think of in wearing a cloak during edged weapon combat.
I've no doubt that there will be some obscure esoteric forms of fencing where capes and cloaks will have a defensive or aggresive purpose.
I raised this point with a couple of well respected commercial sculptors a few years back and their answer was logical and simple.
'Its there simply for aesthetic reasons for example a red cloak helps define a Spartan or Roman officer and when you sculpt a single figure a flowing cloak gives visual interest and helps create a sense of dynamic movement' ........ fair points.
Cheers
Derek

 

[DaddyO]

In the absence of a shield the cape could be wrapped around the hand without a weapon offering a rudimentary protection, but that would more likely be for dueling. Certainly I'd take one off if charging down a hill swinging a sword . . . (as you do)
Paul

 

[Martin64]

Cloaks can get in the way during close combat, give your opponent the chance to get you off balance by dragging at them, put additional weight and warmth upon you when not wanted..... get damaged so that later when you want your cloak as protection from bad weather it`s of no use...
I share your view Janne and think that Derek gave perfect reasons why cloaks are still so popular on miniatures "in action". In many ways there is a difference between the little romantic sculptures and reality of a battlefield.

Cheers, Martin

 

[Helm]

The cape/cloak was recognised as useful in a fencing type duel as below but other than that it serves no real purpose especially in a pitched battle other than a useful thing for your enemy to grab you with
Steve

 

[Mat Lambert]

I think the cloaks on figures are probably added to give a sense of grandeur or movement to the figures pose rather than reflecting historical accuracy or combat technique. I went through all the Ancients in my stash a while ago and almost everyone had a cloak - I hadn't really noticed until I got them altogether and I think it was because they just appealed to me more almost subconsciously.
Cheers
Mat

 

[DEL]

The cape/cloak was recognised as useful in a fencing type duel as below but other than that it serves no real purpose especially in a pitched battle other than a useful thing for your enemy to grab you with
Steve

Looking at the stance and how they're being held I'm guessing that the purpose of the cloak was to ensnare the rapier or to be flicked at the opponents eyes.
I suppose that a line of small weights sewn into the hem could make this quite effective. Something at the back of my mind is telling me that the French Gendarmes had lead weights in their capes.

 

[peedee]

Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but I always had brown and green leaves sewn onto my cloak so when I arose from ambush in the Teutenwald, the Romans also cloaked but carrying everything on a pole were so encumbered we had a huge advantage.

But that was the good old days.....sigh.
PeeusDeeatrix

 

[DEL]

Obbiouslu I can'y speak for anyone else, but I always had brown and green leaves sewn onto my cloak
But that was the good old days.....sigh.
PeeusDeeatrix

Natures Wet Wipes

 

[peedee]

Lol.....a lot.

P

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Thank you all for chipping in and confirming my thesis.

Cheers
Janne Nilsson

 

[Helm]

Looking at the stance and how they're being held I'm guessing that the purpose of the cloak was to ensnare the rapier or to be flicked at the opponents eyes.
I suppose that a line of small weights sewn into the hem could make this quite effective. Something at the back of my mind is telling me that the French Gendarmes had lead weights in their capes.

Thats pretty much it Del there were schools devoted to that style of duelling some of the clocks even had mail linings, you could also wrap the cloak around your arm and use it as a rudimentary shield
Steve

 

[John Bowery]

I found this article.

Rapier and cloak
Another off-hand weapon that would have been easily at hand to a Renaissance duelist was the cloak. DiGrassi advocated the use of the cloak for rapier fighting and maintained that it could be a very effective tool. However, using a cloak may be a boon or a bane. Fighting cloaks should be made out of stiff material and should be smaller than larger in size. A late 16th or early 17th Century cape would be appropriate. The cape should be sturdy enough to withstand the abuse of being cut or thrust with a rapier. DiGrassi maintained that three things must be considered in using the cloak: its length, largeness and flexibility.

"The use whereof was first found out by chance and after reduced into art. Neither was this for any other cause, then for that nature doth not only delight to invent things, but also to preserve them being invented. And that she may the better do it, she taketh for her help all those things that are commodious for her. Wherefore, as men in diverse accidents have casually proved, that the Cloak helpeth greatly (for as much as they are to wear it daily) they have devised how they may behave themselves in all that, in which the Cloak may serve their turn. . .
As the Cloak in this Art, hath in it three things to be considered, to wit: length, largeness, and flexibility: so it is to be wayed how far each of these will stretch, to serve the turn."​

The cloak, although not a strong thing in and of itself, lends itself to defense because of its very nature. Being long, it may guard against cuts to the side. Being flexible, it will absorb the strength of the blow. It may also be used to turn a thrust to the side or to entrap the blade.
Typically the cape is held either by the collar or at one edge close to the hem. In the on guard it should be held out from the body and should drape down from the hand. If you have a long cape or cloak you may fold the cloak once or twice around the hand and forearm. You must assure that you do not obscure your sight with the cloak. This can prove to be a deadly maneuver. The cloak may also be worn when being employed for defense. In this instance you would grab the cloak by the hem and use it almost as a shield.
A point to remember in these cases is that the flexibility of the cloak is what protects. If a cut lands on a cloak that is against a solid surface (i.e. your arm, leg or flank) the protection is lost and you will be cut through the cloak.
The cloak may also be used offensively. Holding the cloak by the collar or hem it may be used to entangle a blade or beat it to the side giving you the time to offend your opponent. It may also be thrown over your opponent's head thus blinding them temporarily. Throwing the cloak is dangerous in that you may lose it and not accomplish your aims. It may also be twirled or flicked at your opponent to confuse them. They will not know if you are trying to blind them with a throw or are maneuvering to entangle their blade.

Comes from the website:
http://www2.nau.edu/~wew/rapier.htm
Cheers
John

 

[DEL]

I found this article.

Rapier and cloak
Comes from the website:
http://www2.nau.edu/~wew/rapier.htm
Cheers
John

Great link Johm ....... much appreciated.
Cheers
Derek

 

[ChaosCossack]

I agree about the aesthetics of sculpting a cape on a figure... gives the impression of flow, movement and volume and frankly just looks damn good.
As for practicality, not so good in a mob for sure but if smartly used, quite helpful in one-on-one or two-on-one blade combat. Though I don't wear a cape or cloak (often ) I will say my heavy leather jacket and my beat up denim jacket, used as a "main gouche" (sorry my French spelling is merde), kept me from being cut up more than once on and around Queen St in the '80s. Damn Punks with their switchblades!

All that being said, to you sculptors, a duelling pair from the XVII cen, one with rapier and dagger, the other rapier and cape in left hand... more practical but with the opportunity for great flow and motion... the cape being flung across from the left to counter a thrust from his opponent... this could be a cool vignette!

Colin

 

[MCPWilk]

I'm in the process of doing a 200mm centurion. I have yet to settle on the pose: if standing, out of combat, my intention was to include a cloak, if fighting, to exclude one.

Mike

 

[chippy]

I think Jannes question was Bronze age to Iron age Not 15th - 16th cent cloaks . Personally I can see the advantage of a cloak in combat when swords didn't have the sharp edges of later periods . I can see that it would decrease the blow plus it would also make stabbing for the body harder to define if there's a cloak getting in the way .

Natures Wet Wipes

What a wonderful thing the Doc leaf is . ( for the Townes it's broad leaf plant that grows next to nettles and is perfect for !!!)
chippy

 

[DEL]

I think Jannes question was Bronze age to Iron age Not 15th - 16th cent cloaks . Personally I can see the advantage of a cloak in combat when swords didn't have the sharp edges of later periods . I can see that it would decrease the blow plus it would also make stabbing for the body harder to define if there's a cloak getting in the way .
What a wonderful thing the Doc leaf is . ( for the Townes it's broad leaf plant that grows next to nettles and is perfect for !!!)
chippy

.......... Rubbing on nettle stings when you mistake the Nettle leaf for the Docken leaf