Help please, Napoleonic Russian Kiver (Shako)

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Viking Bob

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I am in the process of painting a Russian grenadier 1812 but I am stumped on the colour of the Pom Pom below the plume as shown in the photo. Would it be red for Grenadiers and what about the small device in the centre.
Any help will be very useful
Regards
Bob




Screenshot 2022-08-31 at 17.25.31.png
 
Looking at images online, I see examples that are red, but haven't found one yet with the monogram, still looking. As an educated guess, I'd expect that to be Tsar Alexander's monogram. Still looking, but there are probably members who know more about the subject than I who can answer this. My area is a generation before.

Prost!
Brad
 
Looking at images online, I see examples that are red, but haven't found one yet with the monogram, still looking. As an educated guess, I'd expect that to be Tsar Alexander's monogram. Still looking, but there are probably members who know more about the subject than I who can answer this. My area is a generation before.

Prost!
Brad


Thank you for the information Brad, I am also looking but keep coming up to a blank wall.
Regards
Bob
 
This might help

The cockade is a reproduction officers one but shows the monogram of the Tsar

The kiver has a red with yellow centre

Share the painting !

Happy benchtime

Nap



View attachment 450937 View attachment 450938



Cheers Nap, where did you find the resource.
I am hoping to get some painting in without the help from Arfur and will post process
Regards
Bob
 
Cheers Nap, where did you find the resource.
I am hoping to get some painting in without the help from Arfur and will post process
Regards
Bob


Did a quick google mate , but I have other details ...if I can find them !

That's a officers kiver you posted ....looking forward to seeing more on this piece , think it might be Avantpost ? ....looks a great sculpt ....not your usual scarlet or red ....lol

Happy benchtime to Arfur

Nap
 
Did a quick google mate , but I have other details ...if I can find them !

That's a officers kiver you posted ....looking forward to seeing more on this piece , think it might be Avantpost ? ....looks a great sculpt ....not your usual scarlet or red ....lol

Happy benchtime to Arfur

Nap


Got the Russian officer from Germany, pics soon.
 
Grenadier Kiver 1812...:

Officer 1812...:




Officers Cockade 1812:

img_3656-jpg.450938



Note! During the campaign 1814/1815 the cockade was simplified into wool pompom in orange/black/white...:





Kiver NCO's 1812 ...:




Kiver Musicians (Drummers) 1812...:




Kiver enlisted men 1812...:




Note! The colour of the pompom differed for 1st Btln. (red), 2nd Btln (white/green) and 3rd Btln (yellow/red)...:

 
Grenadier Kiver 1812...:

Officer 1812...:




Officers Cockade 1812:

img_3656-jpg.450938



Note! During the campaign 1814/1815 the cockade was simplified into wool pompom in orange/black/white...:





Kiver NCO's 1812 ...:




Kiver Musicians (Drummers) 1812...:




Kiver enlisted men 1812...:




Note! The colour of the pompom differed for 1st Btln. (red), 2nd Btln (white/green) and 3rd Btln (yellow/red)...:




Thank you Martin, gone with the officers cockade for the figure although scale wise the central may just be black as its so small.
Thanks again
 
Same to me!

Those Russian cockades were invented to drive us figurine painters crazy! If only things were round! But no, they were/are oval!

81400259_1_x.jpg






Cheers
 
I am in the process of painting a Russian grenadier 1812 but I am stumped on the colour of the Pom Pom below the plume as shown in the photo. Would it be red for Grenadiers and what about the small device in the centre.
Any help will be very useful
An officer's cockade, moreover, the figurine depicts a junior-officer, and for junior-officers the cockade was then trimmed around the perimeter with a twisted cord in several rows, and in the center, in a field of alternating orange-black zigzags, the monogram of Alexander I was embroidered.

This might help

The cockade is a reproduction officers one but shows the monogram of the Tsar
In your photos, the officer's cockade below is shown approximately correct, but the shako in the photo is not Russian, but Dutch.

Thank you everyone for the help. Problem solved with the last image Nap put up.
View attachment 450951
This is the shako of the junior-officer of the guard.

Grenadier Kiver 1812...:

Officer 1812...:

This is a senior-officer of the grenadier regiment, his cockade on the shako was sheathed not with cord, but with round sequins. Compare the photo of the senior-officer's cockade.
репеек штаб-офицерскиий 001.jpg



Note! The colour of the pompom differed for 1st Btln. (red), 2nd Btln (white/green) and 3rd Btln (yellow/red)...:

Wrong! See color scheme for shako cockades in the infantry from 1811, which were used in 1812.
Here is the translation with decryption (do not forget that these colors apply only to soldiers in the rank of privates):
repeyki 1811 001.jpg
the Grenadiers have red cockades (in the first battalion they are full red, in the second with a dark green lower segment, in the third battalion with a yellow lower segment);
the Shooters have yellow cockades (in the first battalion they are full yellow, in the second battalion with a dark green lower segment, in the third battalion with a red lower segment);
the Fusiliers, Musketeers and Jaegers have two colors (in the first battalion they are white with a dark green core, in the second battalion they are dark green with a yellow core, in the third battalion they are red with a yellow core).

Those Russian cockades were invented to drive us figurine painters crazy! If only things were round! But no, they were/are oval!
Well, they weren't always oval, before 1809 these cockades were round. And at the maritime department, round ones were preserved until the uniform reform of 1817 (but this does not apply to the figurine of a grenadier officer for 1812).
 
An officer's cockade, moreover, the figurine depicts a junior-officer, and for junior-officers the cockade was then trimmed around the perimeter with a twisted cord in several rows, and in the center, in a field of alternating orange-black zigzags, the monogram of Alexander I was embroidered.

In your photos, the officer's cockade below is shown approximately correct, but the shako in the photo is not Russian, but Dutch.

This is the shako of the junior-officer of the guard.

This is a senior-officer of the grenadier regiment, his cockade on the shako was sheathed not with cord, but with round sequins. Compare the photo of the senior-officer's cockade.
View attachment 451017



Wrong! See color scheme for shako cockades in the infantry from 1811, which were used in 1812.
Here is the translation with decryption (do not forget that these colors apply only to soldiers in the rank of privates):
View attachment 451018
the Grenadiers have red cockades (in the first battalion they are full red, in the second with a dark green lower segment, in the third battalion with a yellow lower segment);
the Shooters have yellow cockades (in the first battalion they are full yellow, in the second battalion with a dark green lower segment, in the third battalion with a red lower segment);
the Fusiliers, Musketeers and Jaegers have two colors (in the first battalion they are white with a dark green core, in the second battalion they are dark green with a yellow core, in the third battalion they are red with a yellow core).

Well, they weren't always oval, before 1809 these cockades were round. And at the maritime department, round ones were preserved until the uniform reform of 1817 (but this does not apply to the figurine of a grenadier officer for 1812).



svt,
Thank you for the answer to this question, I assume junior officer wore silver epaulettes.
Thanks again.
Regards
Bob
 
Cheers to set for his replies always good to get interesting information

Mine was just a google ref ....obviously wrong at the Auctioneers

Nap
 
svt,
Thank you for the answer to this question, I assume junior officer wore silver epaulettes.
As for the offices epaulettes - the junior officer wore epaulettes without fringe,
Обер-офицерский эполет.jpg

the senior officer wore epaulettes with fringe,
Эполет штаб-офицерский.jpg

the generals had epaulettes with very thick fringe of gimp.
Эполет генеральский.jpg

The color of officer epaulettes at that time did not depend on the rank, but on the military branch.

From such cords a fringe was made for the epaulettes of senior officers.
бахрома штабофицерская.jpg

And this is how the braided ropes from the gimp looked along the edges of the general's epaulettes.
канитель 001.jpg

And this is the fringe of the gimp used on the general's epaulettes.
бахрома генеральская.jpg
 
Mine was just a google ref ....obviously wrong at the Auctioneers
This happens - auctioneers are often mistaken, besides, the authors of the lot sometimes deliberately wishful thinking, and sometimes outright fakes come across there.
 
As for the offices epaulettes - the junior officer wore epaulettes without fringe,
View attachment 451019

the senior officer wore epaulettes with fringe,
View attachment 451021

the generals had epaulettes with very thick fringe of gimp.
View attachment 451022

The color of officer epaulettes at that time did not depend on the rank, but on the military branch.

From such cords a fringe was made for the epaulettes of senior officers.
View attachment 451023

And this is how the braided ropes from the gimp looked along the edges of the general's epaulettes.
View attachment 451024

And this is the fringe of the gimp used on the general's epaulettes.
View attachment 451025


svt,
It just shows that if you ask there is always someone who knows the answers to certain questions.
I am very grateful for your reply
Regards
Bob
 
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