How's this for mindless PC

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It is not and never was the Confederate flag it is the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia and up to very late in the war was only used in Virginia.A great many Americans north and south know very little of their own history.There was one so called southern expert on a BBC morning show who speaking expertly on the flag said it was based on the cross of ST George
 
It's all a load of old, cobbler-shop.jpg, However, those that are remonstrating will eventually break wind! and normality will return.:whistle: (In hope).

Mark.
 
True, I called it by both names.... my bad. The battle flag replaced the "stars and bars" in the field as the federal and confederate flags could be confused in the smoke and chaos of battle.
Therefore, in my mind, the Confederate flag is the one that represents government policy (including slavery) while the battle flag represents the poor fighting man, the Johnny Reb, fighting for his rights against an invading force under overwhelming circumstances. .. that guy, I can relate to.

Colin
 
Huw63 said:
The flags - confederate,nazi, Rhodesian etc have a place in history - but trying to eradicate them, say that any display even in a computer game is nuts. Anyway the confederate flag is associated in my mind with the confederacy and not the issue of slavery or racism, both of which I abhor. The swastika is different especially if you ever visit a camp or have met a survivor.
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While I in general agree with your statement it is a good example for the way we make judgements by "association" with views, own experiences etc.
It is true that the American Civil War was not all about slavery and the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 first only applied to the Southern States in rebellion - it was a measure of war to weaken the opponents and not driven in the first place by humanity!
Still there were about 4 million people held in slavery in the South so with what other symbol or social system do you associate slavery and racism? Historically the Southern Cross (three official versions - see Old Pete`s post) stood for the States that fought for the independence from the Union and their rights - the right to own slaves included.
Other images like "Scarlett and Ashley", "being a rebel against tyranny" etc are now being linked to the rebel flag and change the way we look at it 150 years later.

"The swastika is different" - it lends itself to the association of racism, terror and murder by the shocking record of the short lived Third Reich. But is it so totally different?
The Queen of Britain visits Germany at the moment and will today visit the former concentration camp at Bergen-Belsen. The concentration camps of the Nazis are preserved as a future reminder against inhumanity and the Union Jack is being waved by the many people welcoming the Queen.
I don`t know if the Queen ever visited / talked to survivors of a former concentration camp in South Africa where British soldiers held Boerish vulnerable civilians as prisoners and killed thousands by starvation and diseases just 40 years before Bergen-Belsen. I don`t know if there are today any remainders of these concentration camps preserved as memorials against cruelty.
For sure the Union Jack is not associated with these camps when it is flown today although it was flying over the dead bodies of Boerish women and children that often looked like the skeletons of Bergen-Belsen little more than 100 years ago. The survivors of these camps surely had different associations to the Union Jack than we have!
The same refers to victims of the Gulags in Russia and similar camps in Cambodia, North Korea, the Balkans etc.

These are my digressing and sobering thoughts when I look at flags and national symbols being raised... some of them being prohibited by a political correctness that likes the "simple truth" and being blind for other historical facts.
But it´s not the flag or the PC-game - it`s the mindset beneath many flags that can mean harm to our world and other human beings.

My more than two cents:rolleyes: - interesting thread.
Cheers, Martin
 
Ferris said:
Good point Huw.

What does it say about the US that after this horrible event all the attention goes to the issue of the flag, and not to the availability of guns?

Just a question.
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Well, if any of those folks had had a concealed-carry permit, Roof might be where he deserves to be right now, and nine innocent, beautiful, warm and loving people might still be alive.
 
Martin64 said:
While I in general agree with your statement it is a good example for the way we make judgements by "association" with views, own experiences etc.
It is true that the American Civil War was not all about slavery and the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 first only applied to the Southern States in rebellion - it was a measure of war to weaken the opponents and not driven in the first place by humanity!
Still there were about 4 million people held in slavery in the South so with what other symbol or social system do you associate slavery and racism? Historically the Southern Cross (three official versions - see Old Pete`s post) stood for the States that fought for the independence from the Union and their rights - the right to own slaves included.
Other images like "Scarlett and Ashley", "being a rebel against tyranny" etc are now being linked to the rebel flag and change the way we look at it 150 years later.

"The swastika is different" - it lends itself to the association of racism, terror and murder by the shocking record of the short lived Third Reich. But is it so totally different?
The Queen of Britain visits Germany at the moment and will today visit the former concentration camp at Bergen-Belsen. The concentration camps of the Nazis are preserved as a future reminder against inhumanity and the Union Jack is being waved by the many people welcoming the Queen.
I don`t know if the Queen ever visited / talked to survivors of a former concentration camp in South Africa where British soldiers held Boerish vulnerable civilians as prisoners and killed thousands by starvation and diseases just 40 years before Bergen-Belsen. I don`t know if there are today any remainders of these concentration camps preserved as memorials against cruelty.
For sure the Union Jack is not associated with these camps when it is flown today although it was flying over the dead bodies of Boerish women and children that often looked like the skeletons of Bergen-Belsen little more than 100 years ago. The survivors of these camps surely had different associations to the Union Jack than we have!
The same refers to victims of the Gulags in Russia and similar camps in Cambodia, North Korea, the Balkans etc.

These are my digressing and sobering thoughts when I look at flags and national symbols being raised... some of them being prohibited by a political correctness that likes the "simple truth" and being blind for other historical facts.
But it´s not the flag or the PC-game - it`s the mindset beneath many flags that can mean harm to our world and other human beings.

My more than two cents:rolleyes: - interesting thread.
Cheers, Martin
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Very interesting points you make MartinThe one digression in my view is that the two dictatorships in Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia industrialised murder and that makes them worse in my mind as they took people away to simply kill them but that is my opinion. However I think your comment about about mindset most eloquently sums up the point I was making or trying to make.

Regards

Huw
 
theBaron said:
Well, if any of those folks had had a concealed-carry permit, Roof might be where he deserves to be right now, and nine innocent, beautiful, warm and loving people might still be alive.
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And if there had been no firearms then maybe nothing would have happened... We could argue the toss for decades on this one.

What I will say is that the church members really live to their Christian standards but forgiving the nutter. Whilst I'm no Christian I admire them for practising what they preach and they deserve respect for that.

Huw
 
Huw63 said:
Very interesting points you make MartinThe one digression in my view is that the two dictatorships in Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia industrialised murder and that makes them worse in my mind as they took people away to simply kill them but that is my opinion. However I think your comment about about mindset most eloquently sums up the point I was making or trying to make.

Regards

Huw
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Yes, the applied industrialised possibilities backed up by an insane ideology took inhumanity to it`s extreme.
But I can`t see so much difference when you put women, children and elderly people by purpose under insufficient nutrition and medical care and watch thousands dying - of course you technically don`t kill but let them die on their own. Under said conditions the relatives of active combattants got even less food than the others - that can be seen as - and IMHO is - murder. If this is tagged as industrialised murder or simple murder does not matter as a victim.
Just the victors, their way to write history and our associations make the big difference - Lord Kitchener got a promotion and became the poster boy for recruitment some years later.
And that`s why I can`t adapt to today`s political correctness / blindness about flags and symbols - even less when it comes down to models and PC-games.
All the best!
Martin
 
theBaron said:
Well, if any of those folks had had a concealed-carry permit, Roof might be where he deserves to be right now, and nine innocent, beautiful, warm and loving people might still be alive.
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Hi Brad,

Let us not go into the gun issue. Coming from across the pond we're bound to disagree on that one, no point discussing.
The thing is, you didn't answer the question :) Why is the discussion about some flag and not about the umptieth loonatic and how he got his guns?

I wouldn't be surprised if the gun lobby stirred up the flag thing, just to deflect attention. Pressure on gun ownership is mounting.

Cheers,
Adrian
 
Ferris said:
Hi Brad,

Let us not go into the gun issue. Coming from across the pond we're bound to disagree on that one, no point discussing.
The thing is, you didn't answer the question :) Why is the discussion about some flag and not about the umptieth loonatic and how he got his guns?

I wouldn't be surprised if the gun lobby stirred up the flag thing, just to deflect attention. Pressure on gun ownership is mounting.

Cheers,
Adrian
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That is absolutely ridiculous, what an ignorant conspiracy minded statement. You accomplished your goal in your country, leave mine alone.
 
My original comment was focused on the scary over reaching eradication of the the CSA battle flag in a sister hobby. There is certainly the potential for spill over in ours. I would suggest that we not extend the discussion to gun control as that political discussion is sure to fire tempers and get this thread closed.
 
Well with three pages of comment I think the original point of the misplaced, confused PC regarding the CSA flag has been well and truly made and understood anyway.
Any further discussion will surely only go in that one obvious direction we'd like to avoid anyway, with one obvious result as well.......so it should end here anyway imo.
 
I am going to answer Adrian who I consider to be one of the voices of reason usually on the forum and Mark, what difference does it make how long the thread is? The discussion on Scottish Independence was one of the longest in the forums history, had a couple minor flareups and ended civily. This PC issue is filtering into a lot of daily life other than just flags.
Adrian, as far as I can establish, the gun(a Glock 45) was bought legally. The question is only about did his father give him the money for the gun or did he give him the gun for his birthday. I would like to point out that when the FBI published his picture, his Father and Uncle reported his identification which led to his fast capture.
This nutball here was not being treated (news so far) physciatrically.

Huw63 said:
What I will say is that the church members really live to their Christian standards but forgiving the nutter. Whilst I'm no Christian I admire them for practising what they preach and they deserve respect for that.

Huw
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I woould like to commend you for that observation. This has almost been lost in the rush for the flag. There are many different types of courage and to stand within 48 hrs and forgive the man who just killed a loved one for no reason, takes courage. A son of one of the victims said he hopes this tragedy brings all people together. I hope he's right. Living here in South Carolina for 10 years, this didn't surprise me.

Bob
 
crf said:
My original comment was focused on the scary over reaching eradication of the the CSA battle flag in a sister hobby. There is certainly the potential for spill over in ours. I would suggest that we not extend the discussion to gun control as that political discussion is sure to fire tempers and get this thread closed.
Click to expand...


This PC issue is being addressed on many levels. Jerry Seinfeld recently led an attack on it. Bill Maher has said its embarrassing for liberals like himself to have other liberals trying to supress freee speech. Most comedians here won't do college campuses anymore because they say there is no sense of humor as everything is deemed offensive.

Bob
 

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