godfather
Well-Known Member
Is it accurate to paint the cape of a knight templar black and the surcoat white. I am painiting Soldiers knight the one holding his scabbard in the air. BTW is is knight templar or templar knight?
knight templar's cape colours
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Einion
A Fixture
Possibly, there's no guarantee that there was complete uniformity in their dress, the real question is whether the cape itself is accurate :lol:
I would think it was more common than not for knights of the military orders to dress with minor variations in their clothing as there was individual variation in their arms and armour.
<!--QuoteBegin-godfather@Jun 15 2005, 05:14 PM
BTW is is knight templar or templar knight?[/quote]
Either. You can also refer to one as just a Templar, in just the way that you can say just Hospitaller instead of "Knight Of The Order Of St. John".
Einion
Augie
Well-Known Member
Accurate? No.
The Rule is quite specific and emphatic about this. Would a Templar brother-knight have passed himself off as a Sergeant of the Order, or a Hospitaller? Though proscribed by the Rule, I imagine anything within the realm of human activity would be "possible". . . The reverse, however, would appear to have been plausible, though extremely unlikely by this time.
The "cape" is accurate enough. The problem is one of terminology, and whether or not what the figure is represented as wearing is the mantle of the order or a "cape": I suspect the sculptor intended to represent the former. How well he succeeded in depicting the garment is another matter.
There is nothing about this figure that necessarily makes it a Templar. Thus you are free to depict the subject as a brother-knight of any of the Military Orders of the time--or even a secular knight!
A~
El Passo Honroso
Tarok
A Fixture
I find it interesting that so many sculpters cast Templar's in battlefield dress while wearing a cape/cloak. I think I have yet to see a manuscript or carving depicting the Templars thus. A cape or cloak would be an enormous hinderance when in battle.
The mantle of the order was a part of their peacetime dress. As stated above the mantle of a knight was white, while sergeants wore black or brown.
I suspect that had any Templar worn a cloak into battle it would have been the mantle... what knight would want to pass themself off as a sergeant, or even a secular knight...
Rudi
The mantle of the order was a part of their peacetime dress. As stated above the mantle of a knight was white, while sergeants wore black or brown.
I suspect that had any Templar worn a cloak into battle it would have been the mantle... what knight would want to pass themself off as a sergeant, or even a secular knight...
Rudi
Augie
Well-Known Member
Hi Rudi,
I personally agree: men-at-arms with cloaks, "mantles", what have you, simply does not make a lick of sense in a battlefield environment--and a hot one at that!--but there you have it. . .
With regard to the subject before us, the problem boils down to terminology. "Mantle" and cape tend to be used interchangeably, albeit carelessly, by translators and authors. "Habit" is a catch-all phrase that rarely suggests what it is describing; and then in the 13th c., the mud-puddle is vigorously stirred with the introduction of the surcoat.
The Hospitallers are much easier to come to grips with than the Templars. As much as I have read and re-read the Rule (including the Catalan version), I have yet to arrive at a satisfactory and logical timeline of their costume. And let's not even broach the subject of their heraldry and the "Perugian Pit"!
Ah well. . .
Augie
El Passo Honroso
I personally agree: men-at-arms with cloaks, "mantles", what have you, simply does not make a lick of sense in a battlefield environment--and a hot one at that!--but there you have it. . .
With regard to the subject before us, the problem boils down to terminology. "Mantle" and cape tend to be used interchangeably, albeit carelessly, by translators and authors. "Habit" is a catch-all phrase that rarely suggests what it is describing; and then in the 13th c., the mud-puddle is vigorously stirred with the introduction of the surcoat.
The Hospitallers are much easier to come to grips with than the Templars. As much as I have read and re-read the Rule (including the Catalan version), I have yet to arrive at a satisfactory and logical timeline of their costume. And let's not even broach the subject of their heraldry and the "Perugian Pit"!
Ah well. . .
Augie
El Passo Honroso
renarts
A Fixture
The only reference I have seen of any information regarding Templar dress is a reference to a Papal Bull of 1145 determining the color of surcoats and mantles allowed to Knights, serjants, confrere knights and clergy. I have not seen this papal bull, only a reference to it in a couple of sources.
Mathew Paris (13thc) has a nice illustration of two templars on a horse but this does more to show the banner and their shield and not the surcoat, nor can a mantle be seen.
Most of the 14thc. manuscript illustrations that chroncile the arrest, trial and burning of the grand masters and De Molay show them in their clerical robes and not in armor.
I think what we see regarding the more common illustrations are the Rascinet illustrations or copies of these which are in most cases Victorian suppositions or pictoral interpretations of flowing robes on knights in armor. Probobly interpreted from period sources like the Manessa codex, Grand Chronique of France, Froissart, Mathew Paris, Joinville etc that show secular orders of knights in "civilian dress" but portrayed with armor to reflect their military station.
Mathew Paris (13thc) has a nice illustration of two templars on a horse but this does more to show the banner and their shield and not the surcoat, nor can a mantle be seen.
Most of the 14thc. manuscript illustrations that chroncile the arrest, trial and burning of the grand masters and De Molay show them in their clerical robes and not in armor.
I think what we see regarding the more common illustrations are the Rascinet illustrations or copies of these which are in most cases Victorian suppositions or pictoral interpretations of flowing robes on knights in armor. Probobly interpreted from period sources like the Manessa codex, Grand Chronique of France, Froissart, Mathew Paris, Joinville etc that show secular orders of knights in "civilian dress" but portrayed with armor to reflect their military station.
Augie
Well-Known Member
For Templar costume:
The Rule of the Templars: the French text of the Rule of the Order of the Knights Templar. Translated and introduced by J.M. Upton-Ward. (Boydell Press, 1992).
The Catalan Rule of the Templars: a critical edition and English translation from Barcelona, Archivo de la Corona de Aragón, 'Cartes reales', ms. 3344. Translated and edited by J.M. Upton-Ward. (Boydell Press, 2003).
HTH!
A~
El Passo Honroso
The Rule of the Templars: the French text of the Rule of the Order of the Knights Templar. Translated and introduced by J.M. Upton-Ward. (Boydell Press, 1992).
The Catalan Rule of the Templars: a critical edition and English translation from Barcelona, Archivo de la Corona de Aragón, 'Cartes reales', ms. 3344. Translated and edited by J.M. Upton-Ward. (Boydell Press, 2003).
HTH!
A~
El Passo Honroso
Tarok
A Fixture
My 'quick desktop' reference is "Knight Templar 1120 - 1312" Helen Nicholson (Osprey Warrior series) - which tends to be satisfacory for a quick workbench reference... the other is to a certain degree logic... put yourself in the shoes of the warrior of a strict and secretive religious order of the 12th century...
Rudi
Rudi
Einion
A Fixture
It's not whether cloaks were actually worn at this time I was referring to
it is issues with the shape and length; given how it's depicted being worn, also 'weight' and attachment. It's an attractive sculpt but the hairstyle (easy enough to rectify) and the form of the cloak (much more work) bother me. There's also the lack of even a simple linen coif given he's holding his great helm; I don't remember from looking at the kit in person but the hauberk must be 'hooded', so whether or not it's lined has a bearing but a coif or arming cap is still possible, if not even likely depending on how much weight one gives to specific period illustrations and modern interpretations.
Einion
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