My Euro

[brian]

I've been going to Euro for many years and this has got to be the best one for me.All me old mates plus Stephan, a really nice German mate which was his first time at Euro.
Meeting up with all my English mates ,to numerous to mention,but you know who you are although i know a couple who don't know what planet there on.I hope your knee gets better Ian!
I always judge Euro by the friendly people i meet and how many laughs i get ,and in this category i got a Gold.
Unfortunately my highest award for my figures was Highly commended but the above more than compensated for that.
I thought the judging overall was fair ,but for a few exceptions,but thats normal for Euro.
I loved the whole weekend from the time i got on the train to the time i left on Monday.
Unfortunately being an old bugger who speaks his mind i felt there was a down side although minor (so far).When i was judging in the competition room i felt there was an inner sanctum developing or a small clique of judges which i hadn't felt in any other Euro i've been to, which worries me a bit for the future.It was commented on by other people so it's not a touch of paranoia by me.
The other thing that was noticable was the figures which were artisticly superb i.e. sooty black and faces ,although beautifully painted, looked dead and looked like no human being i've ever seen, no where near realistic and there were figures which were realistically superb
From a judging point of view this must be a problem that occurs when you have 2 figures with the different styles which are both well painted but are light years apart in their style of painting.
I like both styles,so we have the artistic unrealistic versus the realistic On closing i think Mr Cartacci has it just right.
Sorry for wittering on for so long but i always like to stimulate peoples thoughts on particular matters regarding our fanatastic hobby.
Brian

 

[megroot]

Brian,
Again we missed eachother. Been there sunday alone i also have a good time, but was totally destroyed by 16:00 hour.
Looking every year to have some small talks with you.

I thought the judging overall was fair ,but for a few exceptions,but thats normal for Euro.
Unfortunately being an old bugger who speaks his mind i felt there was a down side although minor (so far).When i was judging in the competition room i felt there was an inner sanctum developing or a small clique of judges which i hadn't felt in any other Euro i've been to, which worries me a bit for the future.It was commented on by other people so it's not a touch of paranoia by me.

I hear that to, but it looks like it was the same bunch like last year. I believe it never gonna change.

The other thing that was noticable was the figures which were artisticly superb i.e. sooty black and faces ,although beautifully painted, looked dead and looked like no human being i've ever seen, no where near realistic and there were figures which were realistically superb
From a judging point of view this must be a problem that occurs when you have 2 figures with the different styles which are both well painted but are light years apart in their style of painting.

Totally agree. But i really don't like the coleminers look. Unrealistic, but it works by the jury. And if it works and you really go for medals, it has to be done.

I like both styles,so we have the artistic unrealistic versus the realistic On closing i think Mr Cartacci has it just right.
Brian

I think we can all learn about Euro and how the figures are painted. As i'm a admire of your work and that from Danilo i have alot to learn.
Looking forward to Antwerp next year where Mr Cartacci is our prominent guest.

Marc

 

[gforceman]

Not for medals

Hi Marc,

Totally agree. But i really don't like the coleminers look. Unrealistic, but it works by the jury. And if it works and you really go for medals, it has to be done.

Ever thought that people might love this "coalminers look" and paint this way because they love the look and not to gain a medal or something. I'm not aware if my figures are coalminers or not, but I paint to get a result I more or less like (still not getting the result I love) and can't care less if I get a medal or not. I think if I should paint for medals the stress would be so high that I wouldn't have fun painting and would look for another hobbyy (probably palying video games!). So, I admit I don't go for the realistic look, think this is impossible too just because of the fact we are working "in scale" and I think that our hobby is just like any other form of art with different styles, some realistic some not. That's what they call artisitc freedom.

Cheers,

Gino.

 

[brian]

Hi Gino
I totally agree with you ,i've got a definate style of painting which i wouldn't change but what i was trying to point out is the big difference in styles which must be hard to judge especially if you have a bias towards one or the other.
I've seen your figures and wouldn't say they were not realistic.I think the only way i could explain myself better would be to show 2 examples of the different styles but i would end up upsetting one or the other painters so i'll hold my tongue.
Brian

 

[Andrew Craft]

What is the coal miner look, can anyone show me an example please?

 

[gordy]

What is the coal miner look, can anyone show me an example please?

I'm lost to what that style is as well

 

[Marcel]

Although this was my first Euro, I have to agree with you brain it was an excellent show with high quality enties.
Like Andrew I'm wondering also what is the coal miner look. Are mine figures coal miners for example?
Then you have for example Danilo and Diego. Two different styles of painting. Danilo with a more soft approach and Diego with the higher contrast. Although I prefer Danilo's painting style they are both worldclass.

Cheers,
Marcel.

 

[Figure Mad]

The Coal miner look:- Its where the figures are painted so dark that its only highlights that are of the finished colour, even faces, I have experience this for quite a while and have been trying to paint figures a little, shall we say, closer to reality, which I feel is the right way to go, we don’t see with digital eyes.

A good example of the coal miner look is the latest from Alexander Miniatures (see pic), in the flesh its very very dark, in fact so dark it has black shadows on the upper surfaces to help indicate folds and creases, but what I have found is that when it is photographed with a digital camera, the lowest darks and highest lights are removed by the white balance, automatically by the camera, giving a more natural look. This just shows figures are being painted for the digital camera i.e. box arts, rather than the natural viewing of the figure.......

Dave

 

[gordy]

Dave, thanks for the explanation.
I enjoy both styles

 

[brian]

Hi Dave
Your explanation is spot on.Quite a lot of painters paint for the digital camera but this is not a new thing as i know for a fact that the great Derek Hansen used this technique when he was "the man" .All that i was trying to point out was it would be difficult to judge if you had one of each styles next to each other,but with hindsight i wish i hadn't started this thread as i dearly love this hobby of mine but i find it difficult to not vent my spleen but i feel i've charged out of the trenches and looked back and i'm the only one that's charged.
The criticisms i first wrote about in my first message which covered a couple of topics including the advent of a disturbing inner sanctum,were hopefully to help to enhance the hobby as the hobby must continue to develop but i've got the distinct feeling that i'm pissing in the wind.
Excuse the ramblings of a passionate old man.
Brian

 

[gordy]

Brian,

It is a great topic, as there are many different audiences to paint for. Be it for digital, print or in-person (or even the folks that never show their work) there is an audience and we as viewers are gratified in each ones' style preference. Some might like one style or like myself enjoy many different styles! In the end, it's a great discussion and helps us all appreciate the varied styles there are out there

I'm not privy to the cliques and inner circles at show, I chalk it up to human nature it happens in everywhere.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I think it alway interesting to discuss these things to hear other miniaturists views on it. As long as it civil, that is. For me commenting on style, colours, harsh shading etc is often about personal taste. And you can always see if skill is involved no matter what the style is. Important is to be open for different styles and to know what is high finnish in each style.

Mike Good has posted a few good thoughts about this previous.

Cheers
Janne Nilsson

 

[Diegoff]

The problem is when sombody think that there is a "correct style".
There is not such thing and the organization must clarify this in the judges meeting before the judging begins.
I think that - have always tried- when a judge is considering a piece must ask her-himself: ¿What did the modeller want achieve? ¿Has he succeded in doing it?
We have our own preferred styles but you have to judge thinking that there is a diversity of them and all are worth to consider for a medal.
My english is not very good and haven´t understand "inner sanctum", sorry.
My two pennies.

 

[carl reid]

Hi Brian,

Great to see you the rest of the Scottish lads once again mate as it always is!!!!
No excuses needed mate. I agree with every point you have made.
We both stood outside on the balcony as i'm sure you remember and chatted about all you have mentioned in your thread mate, and I couldn't agree more!!!! There does seem to be a slightly worrying trend/clique/sinner sanctum devleloping. My only hope is that it doesn't get out of control!

I would like to see the judges made to put examples of there work in the cabinets around the room. This would achieve 2 things, it would bring crediblity to the judges and there ability to judge, and secondly eliminate some of the contravercial talking points.

Carl

 

[Ernest]

I have one question, how do work 50 judges with more than 1000 figures? in my country you only see a max of 300 entries and only about 20 figures, no more, and the judges are always the same guys, no more than 7 or 8.
But I wonder how 50 judges in Euromilitare could judge more than 1000 figures in one day, I guess is a hell job....

 

[Diegoff]

Hi Brian,

I would like to see the judges made to put examples of there work in the cabinets around the room. This would achieve 2 things, it would bring crediblity to the judges and there ability to judge, and secondly eliminate some of the contravercial talking points.

Carl

Hello Carl.
I think that that cabinet will show if the judges are good or poor figurinists but nothing about their ability as judges.
I know marvellous sculptors and painters - friends of mine- that make very poor judges. It is not frequent but I have seen this by myself.
On the other hand, there are aficionados not very skilled as painters that could do very well as judges.

 

[DEL]

Brian
I'm with you 100% on this, it's not a matter of one technique being better than another it's simply style and preference. This must be a challenge to the judges and a real big ask to be completely objective.
Perhaps there is a case for defining a couple of different style categories, artistic and realistic, within a common category such as single foot over 65mm. Common criteria in terms of quality of painting would be applied but additional variables in terms of the representation of context, the artist choosing to be judged in one or another.
No idea what these variables might be, as I'm writing this it strikes me that it's overcomplicating an already complex process so perhaps the judging status quo with all the inevitable scope for critcism has to remain.
There were a few figures that almost looked like Capo di Monte porcelain figure, beatiful but in no way a realistic representation of a human engaged in martial activity.

Like Brian I had a ball and this year will be hard to beat, one thing I would like to see is a display category for veteran modellers who no longer compete. This would be facinating to see how styles develop and also give us a chance to see some of the classics in the 'flesh'. Each participant would receive a certificate acknowledging their participation the hobby.
Can't wait 'til nerxt year.
Best Regards
Derek

 

[Krissi]

Hi Brian,
glad to see you got back North of t'Border in good order, and not too put out by your run in with the genteel ladies of Folkestone. Ian's knee whilst not terminal will undoubtedly prevent him returning to work in the immediate future, which will obviously depress him deeply.
As to your comments on judging, I think your right, the two "schools" are distinct, and it shouldn't be the case of elevating one over the other.
I also agree with Carl that at the level of competition that is evident at Euro the judges need to be seen to both "walk the walk", as well as simply "talk the talk". After all surely what you're hoping for in entering is the judgement of your peers, and for those like Danilo and Diego thats a pretty rarified peergroup.
Lastly, as for cliques - twas ever thus, ..... unfortunately.

Take care Bri and Carl, hope to see you both soon.

 

[Einion]

The other thing that was noticable was the figures which were artisticly superb i.e. sooty black and faces ,although beautifully painted, looked dead and looked like no human being i've ever seen, no where near realistic and there were figures which were realistically superb
From a judging point of view this must be a problem that occurs when you have 2 figures with the different styles which are both well painted but are light years apart in their style of painting.

Nicely put

...with hindsight i wish i hadn't started this thread as i dearly love this hobby of mine but i find it difficult to not vent my spleen but i feel i've charged out of the trenches and looked back and i'm the only one that's charged.

Hey, don't sweat it Brian. The thread is titled "My Euro" and anyone who opened it should expect to see your thoughts on the subject, good and bad, positive and negative... and there are always good and not-so-good things about a show.

Einion

 

[Einion]

But i really don't like the coleminers look. Unrealistic, but it works by the jury. And if it works and you really go for medals, it has to be done.

Depends on the judges (and lots of other factors).

It is very hard not to bring your own biases and preferences to the table when judging, but it's very clear some judges make a lot less effort in this regard than others! FWIW I think this and the all-too-common issue of prior familiarity with high-profile entries are the two main problems... but there's simply nothing that can be done about it at the end of the day.

I would like to see the judges made to put examples of there work in the cabinets around the room. This would achieve 2 things, it would bring crediblity to the judges and there ability to judge, and secondly eliminate some of the contravercial talking points.

Honestly, it wouldn't help Carl. First and foremost the ability to produce quality work in no way guarantees that someone is able to judge well. Surely everyone knows one or two blokes like this - intolerant of painting styles not their own, hyper-critical of historical niggles or the smallest anatomical flaw and will dismiss something out of hand for one (other things being done very well)? Looking down I see Diego has already made this point.

The second inversely-related point is what if the judge/judges can't produce work that's right up there in quality? (And it is a fact that many of the judges aren't as good as some of the higher-level entrants whose work they'll be called upon to judge, that's simply the way it is.) It's all too easy then for someone to dismiss their ability or suitability to judge, when it doesn't mean anything of the sort.

For anyone unfamiliar with Euro from recent years, those judging are encouraged to bring along non-competition pieces to put into some display cabinets off to one side.

I think that - have always tried- when a judge is considering a piece must ask her-himself: ¿What did the modeller want achieve? ¿Has he succeded in doing it?

Exactly. This is pretty much word for word one of the things that Bill Horan has said about judging by the way.

I have one question, how do work 50 judges with more than 1000 figures?

Categories with assigned judging teams, one or more run-throughs to select what will be judged, then sometimes long hours doing the actual judging! In extreme cases it can take five, six or more hours to judge a single category.

Einion