Napoleonic Cannons

[Tecumsea]

I'm just in the throes of putting together a little vignette based on a Keith Rocco painting. My question is what colour should I use for the barrel of the, in this case, Mortar.
I've seen them in Brass and Black but although there seems to be definitive colour guides on the undercarriages of Napoleonic equipment nothing is clear regarding barrels. At the moment mine is black and would prefer to leave it that way but is this incorrect?
Any advice would be appreciated

Keith

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

Hi, Keith! have a look at, www.Historical-Firearms.co.uk Granted it is a replica! It would seem, that most cannon of that period were actually 'Bronze',(Not the first time I have read this fact), not Brass or Iron. Now, when bronze is weathered, and exposed to the elements it takes on a much darker hue! that coupled with residue powder and general muck/dust etc! It may appear more metallic- black. or they were just painted black!.. Also try 'Googling, Jean-Baptiste Vaquette de Gribeauval. Hope this helps.

Mark.

 

[Martin Antonenko]

Helps this...?

Both sources say for french canons:
Wood: vert olive (green),
metals: black

http://soldats.empire.free.fr/conseils/coulart.htm

http://www.figurines.miniatures.de/couleurs-artillerie-napoleonienne.html

Some pics...:

http://img.over-blog.com/600x397/0/58/31/46/100_7677.JPG

http://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr...s/mav_large/public/Lieux_NordLilleGribeau.jpg



Cheers

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

Martin, these are very good references!... Will be saving these.

Mark

 

[Martin Antonenko]

http://rosalielebel75.franceserv.com/ancien-regime/gribeauval-canon-12-1.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GVHcoAU_HV8/0.jpg

http://idata.over-blog.com/3/18/39/...Invalides/6-avril-2012-Canons-Invalides-1.jpg

One note: The rule said "black".
But it cannot be completely ruled out, that bronze cannons were in some time "natural" hold, but not polished. After some time in use, they looked also "black"...

http://s3.e-monsite.com/2010/10/10/03/resize_550_550/16.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/embed/rkuSqE1HoCM?feature=player_detailpage

I would paint them black

Cheers

 

[polyphemus]

Hi keith, I've checked the book by Franklin on the British equipment of the period. It seems that the barrels were cast in a 10 part tin to 100 part copper mix resulting in a bronze colour also bearing in mind the effects of weathering. There were some barrels cast in iron but these were the very much heavier pieces. I've also seen reference to the barrels of French equipment having a more pronounced copper tone than brass. I think the confusion regarding a painted black finish might arise from a couple of reasons; naval guns seem to have been painted which makes sense bearing in mind the corrosive effects of sea water also many surviving barrels in museums typically are painted black probably for preservation reasons.

Geoff

 

[Tecumsea]

Thanks for all of your help, the piece of film was fascinating Martin. I have probably painted too dark a green on the woodwork but was correct in painting all of the metal fittings in Black. I think the Barrel needs to be a blue/black metallic finish so I'll have to do a bit of experimenting.
Thanks again for your help and some great references
Keith

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

Geoff, Thats a very interesting obseravtion!... I like it! Did the 'French', use the same metal's in there casting??.. As I was thinking, with such a high,' Copper', content and exposure to the elements These pieces of ordanance would be subject to the 'Verdigris', reaction, without some sort of protective coat. Which may explain the need to paint them black! However, 'Bronze', as far as my limited knowledge goes, does not suffer from this chemical reaction, unless mixed with copper! It would be interesting to find out what mix the French, were using?

Mark

 

[Einion]

I think the Barrel needs to be a blue/black metallic finish so I'll have to do a bit of experimenting.

Black will do fine Keith - when you see that very bluish upper surface to black field pieces it's for exactly the same reason as with a black car, it's just a reflection of the sky.

However, 'Bronze', as far as my limited knowledge goes, does not suffer from this chemical reaction, unless mixed with copper!

Bronze is an alloy based on copper Mark.

Verdigris is a copper reaction, so most of the various brass and bronze alloys (there are many) can form it given the right conditions. But with even a modicum of care it would never be able to form to the degree you'd see on a copper roof; in nooks and crannies though, maybe.

Einion

 

[polyphemus]

Some years ago (around 1971) Almark released a book on the French Napoleonic Artillery which contained a formula for the mix of the green of the French equipment. I can't remember the exact ratio but it was a mix of yellow ochre & black. I did paint a Hinchliffe French gun team using the formula & it produced a green very similar to that in the film. I think that the references to metalwork on the various equipment being black relates to the metal fittings on the gun carriages. I'm still not sure of the barrel colours & I think I'd be inclined to paint them black & then drybrush with bronze.

Geoff

 

[Wings5797]

Hi Guys,
A very interesting thread. I think that at this time almost all cannon and mortar were made from bronze (high copper content with tin added). Bronze is less likely to suffer verdigrises’ due to the tin content. I have seen examples of painted and unpainted barrels but not too sure that these were painted at the time. My personal choice would be to paint the model similar to Martin's picture where the barrel of the cannon looks a black/brown colour with a bronze dry brush over it, with more bronze on the areas where the piece is handled.

Cheers
Keith

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

Thanks, Einion,.. Interesting stuff... I not did realise this...

Mark

 

[Martin Antonenko]

Verdigris is a copper reaction, so most of the various brass and bronze alloys (there are many) can form it given the right conditions. But with even a modicum of care it would never be able to form to the degree you'd see on a copper roof; in nooks and crannies though, maybe.

If such a gun is over a long period exposed unprotected to the elements, the gun barrel runs to completely green.

http://www.wclathan.com/tredegar/005TredegarCanonB.JPG
http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipe...ear.jpg/120px-CW_Arty_M1857_Napoleon_rear.jpg

But then that should not have happened, because the weapons were indeed used. And also the most beautiful "Bronze" gun barrel, after a battle after perhaps 100 shots is black - because hot powder residues are burned in the material.

I think this also speaks for "black".

Cheers

 

[Mirofsoft]

Well, I thnk that the important point as we speak of artillery on campaign and not on parade, is that all "metall parts" were painted black to avoid weathering and rust
Best

 

[MCPWilk]

When I made/painted the 120mm 9lb cannon and limber for Victory Miniatures this topic came up. A weapon in the field may be weathered, but not to the extent of going green! Royal Navy guns were painted, but I'm not sure how well the paint would have adhered to a field gun with use and campaigning. It must also be remembered that the guns of an artillery regiment were regarded as the regiment's colours, and no doubt the NCO's would have made sure they were well kept (which would also have reduced the risk of misfires, etc.). My solution was to undercoat with Halfords black, and overspray with Humbrol bronze (or Ford Roman Bronze). A light wash with black and dry brushing as suggested above, should give a good finish.

Happy modelling,

Mike

 

[Steve]

With regard to the appearance of the barrels and aging, I think no gun chief worth his pay would allow his tube to stay truly grimy. When in action
of course it gets how it gets but once out of the fight it is no different than an infantryman's weapon which is cleaned before much else, and the crew sets about cleaning the entire weapon. A busy crew is a happy crew, etc. The section equipment for all artillery contains tools and rags and the like to take care of this very expensive weapon. The exact appearance of bronze tubes on guns of the past lies in the metallurgy in use, so museum pieces are the most reliable to use for reference. I think bronze pieces except for naval guns looked like the bronze of the day instead of black.

 

[ChaosCossack]

In my experience, as bronze/brass alloys start to oxidize, they will turn a more brown than black... darker in the recesses and inside corners. Bear in mind, the barrels were cast in sand moulds, not machined, so the surface would be rough right from the start and never had the bright "polished" finish you see on guns in reenactments. This rough porous surface invited serious surface oxidization and allowed blackpowder residue to get right in the pores of the metal... Particularly around the muzzle and touchhole. Further, the heat of firing the weapon would make the colour even darker brown and dull. The thickness of the barrel would cause the heat to rise slowly and would retain it longer, so you wouldn't get a "blueing" resulting from rapid heating and cooling of thinner metals.
As for the woodwork, it comes across as an OD Green with a touch of grey with any steel furniture and strapping painted black. The front end of the gun carriage would be caked in soot and the underside and end of the trail would be absolutely beaten to hell from being repeatedly slammed back into the ground on every recoil.

Hope my rambling makes some sense to you

Colin

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

In my experience, as bronze/brass alloys start to oxidize, they will turn a more brown than black... darker in the recesses and inside corners. Bear in mind, the barrels were cast in sand moulds, not machined, so the surface would be rough right from the start and never had the bright "polished" finish you see on guns in reenactments. This rough porous surface invited serious surface oxidization and allowed blackpowder residue to get right in the pores of the metal... Particularly around the muzzle and touchhole. Further, the heat of firing the weapon would make the colour even darker brown and dull. The thickness of the barrel would cause the heat to rise slowly and would retain it longer, so you wouldn't get a "blueing" resulting from rapid heating and cooling of thinner metals.
As for the woodwork, it comes across as an OD Green with a touch of grey with any steel furniture and strapping painted black. The front end of the gun carriage would be caked in soot and the underside and end of the trail would be absolutely beaten to hell from being repeatedly slammed back into the ground on every recoil.

Hope my rambling makes some sense to you

Colin

That sums it up for me

Ron

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

With model cannon's, does anyone have an idea of what 1/24 scale equates to?? 75mm, 90mm?/

Mark.

 

[polyphemus]

75mm

Geoff