New samurai (Pegaso models)

[Wayneb]

Oh well.....Looks great.....A little bit too much stiff as a board for my taste.....

Wayne

 

[The Riveteer]

Just looking at the bare head version however and perhaps it is the camera perspective, but is the (helmetless) head a bit under scale?

Agreed.
As to the hairstyle - easy to correct.

David

 

[myouchin]

I just did a picture search on google and all the historical ones show his head in the classical samurai hair style : shaved head with top knot ! Here is the relevant link for school kids, which I find appropriate for all the ignorant Pegaso fan boys here:
https://homework.study.com/explanat...urai-wear-their-hair-in-the-16th-century.html
Final verdict: the geniuses at Pegaso managed indeed to get both head versions wrong, besides the head size, adressed above !

There are exceptions to many things.You should be more careful when using the word "ignorant".

This is a portrait of Saitō Masayoshi /斎藤 正義(1516-1548), lord of Kaneyama Castle/金山城or兼山城 in Minō province/美濃国.This portrait was completed in 1539.
Click here for details
↓
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/斎藤正義

 

[Ferris]

I just did a picture search on google and all the historical ones show his head in the classical samurai hair style : shaved head with top knot ! Here is the relevant link for school kids, which I find appropriate for all the ignorant Pegaso fan boys here:
https://homework.study.com/explanat...urai-wear-their-hair-in-the-16th-century.html
Final verdict: the geniuses at Pegaso managed indeed to get both head versions wrong, besides the head size, adressed above !

Sorry, but doing a google image search and watching samurai movies can hardly be called historical research. I am sure you have knowledge from other sources as well, but given the subject, blanket statements like yours are probably incorrect and only polarize discussion.

The world would be such a better place if we’d all make an effort to keep things civil and refrain from this kind of digital rabble rousing. Geez.

 

[karlw]

Saitō Masayoshi ? Why bring him up ? Yes there are exceptions but it's not Ieyasu ! And I never said that watching Samurai movies can replace historical research. But it gives you leads ! But here in this forum I constantly get flak from those who prefer picturesque figures over historical correctness and who obviously know very little about this warrior class. Any contest commission picking the winners in the "historical (sic!) figures" category has always to consider 4 main criteria : originality, quality of sculpture, painting, historical .correctness. But over here these criteria are regularly ignored when it comes to Samurai figures. Only a handful of commentators are willing to to raise a critical voice.
If I have to give my vote for this Samurai figure I would rate it as follows, with 5 pts. as the maximum :
Originalty: 1 (there have been many sitting commanders in different sizes)
Historical correctness: 1 (both heads are wrong)
Painting: 5 (one word: brilliant which lifts the figure but is virtually unachievable even for talented painters, Diego is one of the Top professional in this field)
Quality of sculpture: 3 (due to the head issue)
Average: 2.5
Don't get deceived into this figure by simply falling for this incredible painting job.

 

[Henk]

Excuse me whilst I get a refill for my popcorn...

If you think the discussions here, about Samurai accuracy are a bit hot, try some of the AFV model sites. Rivet counting at its best. You are not a real riveteer, until you've argued about the angle of the glacis plate of a Sherman being out by a couple of degrees. LOL.

Or Google "correct shade of Dunkelgelb/Olive Drab/ Feldgrau (other contentious colours are available )".....


Right, popcorn topped up, beer poured, as you where gentlemen.

 

[The Riveteer]

Saitō I constantly get flak from those who prefer picturesque figures over historical correctness and who obviously know very little about this warrior class. Any contest commission picking the winners in the "historical (sic!) figures" category has always to consider 4 main criteria : originality, quality of sculpture, painting, historical .correctness. But over here these criteria are regularly ignored when it comes to Samurai figures. Only a handful of commentators are willing to to raise a critical voice.

karlw - as someone who has raised a critical voice in the past myself, I see where you are coming from, I agree particularly with the un-originality of the pose, but, your 4 main criteria are just that;- "YOUR" criteria, they may not be someone else's. I share your concerns about accuracy but many other's don't. Many members here just want something nice to paint. In other words;- they are here primarily as painters, not modelers, and that may dictate differing priorities.
I welcome any criticism on grounds of accuracy but if you don't want to attract negative response it might help to post some pictorial evidence of the specific points that concern you. Simply saying "that is not accurate" without highlighting any significant points will not convince or endear you to anyone.

I would not suggest anyone use 19th Century photo's as primary sources. Many were staged for profit to sell to Gaijin and there is no reason to believe they are any more "correct" than modern reenactors are (who, in Japan, by the way, are very dedicated to the authenticity of their hobby). Also a 19th century photograph taken, in say 1890, would only be 130 years old but at least 300 years after the period being modelled. In other words, nearer to our modern concept of a Samurai than to the "real thing."
I also don't think this depiction looks very different than any Daimyo shown in Ran, Kagemusha or in any other modern Sengoku Jidai films of recent years. Can you suggest any other films which depict them differently?

As for the Pegaso piece itself ;- I'm not saying it's perfect but it is way ahead of some other figures recently released which were much worse, and not beyond some easy modification if needed.

David

 

[The Riveteer]

Excuse me whilst I get a refill for my popcorn...

If you think the discussions here, about Samurai accuracy are a bit hot, try some of the AFV model sites. Rivet counting at its best. You are not a real riveteer, until you've argued about the angle of the glacis plate of a Sherman being out by a couple of degrees. LOL.

Or Google "correct shade of Dunkelgelb/Olive Drab/ Feldgrau (other contentious colours are available )".....

But wouldn't it be nice if we could all just discus these things openly without getting hot under the collar? Riveteering could be welcome if it's done without an air of superiority or one-up-manship.

David

 

[Henk]

But wouldn't it be nice if we could all just discus these things openly without getting hot under the collar? Riveteering could be welcome if it's done without an air of superiority or one-up-manship.

David

I could not agree more David. Whilst I enjoy and appreciate accuracy, this is first and foremost a hobby, and everybody should enjoy it in the manner they like.

 

[Alex]

I do not know why a painter buying this piece should be penalized in a competition because this or that about the sculpt is historically inaccurate. I mean as a painter, I'm trying to produce the best piece I can paint. My subjectsare always very well researched but I am ok if one bit or two is not perfectly accurate on the model, from an historical point of view.
Now anatomical mistakes, that's something else since they distract completely from the qualities of the finished product. A head too small, a forearm too short, etc. will always scream look at me even under an excellent paint job.

 

[vince wai]

It seems the hata-sashimono fan shape need to be modify and the pole is way too thick............

 

[Wayneb]

It seems the hata-sashimono fan shape need to be modify and the pole is way too thick............View attachment 457976View attachment 457977View attachment 457978

That's what my wife said last time I tried to jab it........I'm thinking she's way too picky....

 

[myouchin]

Saitō Masayoshi ? Why bring him up ? Yes there are exceptions but it's not Ieyasu ! And I never said that watching Samurai movies can replace historical research. But it gives you leads ! But here in this forum I constantly get flak from those who prefer picturesque figures over historical correctness and who obviously know very little about this warrior class. Any contest commission picking the winners in the "historical (sic!) figures" category has always to consider 4 main criteria : originality, quality of sculpture, painting, historical .correctness. But over here these criteria are regularly ignored when it comes to Samurai figures. Only a handful of commentators are willing to to raise a critical voice.
If I have to give my vote for this Samurai figure I would rate it as follows, with 5 pts. as the maximum :
Originalty: 1 (there have been many sitting commanders in different sizes)
Historical correctness: 1 (both heads are wrong)
Painting: 5 (one word: brilliant which lifts the figure but is virtually unachievable even for talented painters, Diego is one of the Top professional in this field)
Quality of sculpture: 3 (due to the head issue)
Average: 2.5
Don't get deceived into this figure by simply falling for this incredible painting job.

Anyone who counts someone else's rivets must be prepared for his or her rivets to be counted by someone else.I pointed out what was missing from the links you showed and gave you some knowledge you didn't have.It's the same as you pointing out an error in the pegaso figure.

Yet another point.

From Kunōsan-tōshōgū/久能山東照宮

This is the katcyū/甲冑 (japanese armor) from which pegaso figures are based.This katcyū is said to have been used by Ieyasu in the battle of Sekigahara and later in the siege of Ōzaka castle.But some Japanese katcyū researchers doubt this.Kazuki Motoyama points out that this katcyū has some characteristics of the Edo period, and concludes that it was produced in the early Edo period.

From Nikkō-tōshōgū/日光東照宮

Many katcyū researchers claim that it was this katcyū that Ieyasu used in the battle of Sekigahara.It is certain from records of the time that this katcyū, which is a remodeled European cuirass, was produced just before Sekigahara.In other words, it is appropriate to think that Kunōsan's katcyū was used only in the siege of Ōzaka castle.The campaign took place twice, separated by a ceasefire period.The first campaign took place in the fall and winter. Not summer.Therefore, your point about menpō does not hold. I respect your right to express your own opinion. And I provided another perspective on historical accuracy.

 

[Franco]

Historical accuracy versus artistic rendering always comes up in our hobby. Great to have everyone sharing views and opinions. Ultimately it is up to each individual whether they buy and/or paint this figure/ other figures. Personally I am OK with some artistic licence but not good when people start using words like ‘ignorant’ ... perhaps others (including myself) have good quality reference material, research knowledge and books on samurais but simply are going to buy this figure because they like it. Down to personal choice.... thank goodness for that.

 

[yellowcat]

Never say never. Might as well join the party for my very last time.

Ieyasu Tokugawa's Shida gusoku armour (Important cultural property of Japan) at Kunōzan Tōshō-gū.
『美術画報 37編巻10』画報社、1915年4月20日。 歯朶具足　徳川家康公所用 :: 東文研アーカイブデータベースより。

This armour is from Tokugawa Art Museum in Japan.

These images are from some Japanese books. Armour owned by Tokugawa

This is a replica armour. In my opinion this is the armour where the sculptor used as reference for his sculpt. The Jinbaori, Do, Teteage and Suneate looks the same.

Regarding the sashimono etc.
These were Ieyasu Tokugawa crests/Kamon, banners, O-uma jirushi and sashimono.

These were the crests, banners and sashimono used by Ieyasu Tokugawa’s third son Hidetada who succeeded the second Tokugawa dynasty after Ieyasu Tokugawa abdicated his official position as shōgun in 1605. Check out the size and scale of the banners and thickness of the post.

My question:
How can Ieyasu Tokugawa use his third son Hidetada's O-uma jirushi (the fan one with the red sun) as depicted on Pegaso's promotion colour photo from the second Tokugawa dynasty?

If you like the figure and do not care about historical accuracy buy it, if you care about historical accuracy still go ahead and buy it and put it in your grey army for references.

Cheers!

 

[myouchin]

Never say never. Might as well join the party for my very last time

My question:
How can Ieyasu Tokugawa use his third son Hidetada's O-uma jirushi (the fan one with the red sun) as depicted on Pegaso's promotion colour photo from the second Tokugawa dynasty?

If you like the figure and do not care about historical accuracy buy it, if you care about historical accuracy still go ahead and buy it and put it in your grey army for references.

Cheers!

Maybe I'm not understanding your question correctly...but the answer to your question is in your book.The last image is it.can you read Japanese? Or can't you read?

 

[Banjer]

Same old trolls pop up in every samurai thread, I for one am getting very tired of it.

No doubt those posts will stay and this one will be deleted.

Bill

 

[Blind Pew]

Those pictures immediately above look like pages out of a book. The guys holding the banners would make great figures. SO much to paint. So much to get wrong...

 

[karlw]

This is probably my last post in this thread too. First I must point out that my critique in essence is not directed at the painter or the painters as an audience, meaning the forum contributors. In this time and place I believe it's important that the sculptors and their outlets, the manufacturers of figures, need to open up their "research" by involving a knowledgable audience to bring in the wider wisdom of the experts to get better figures done, i.e. historical accurate figures. Interaction is a buzz word in Social Media marketing and it makes sense to apply it here too. It's a sad fact that the originality and historical correctness of Samurai figures is in constant decline and has reached a low point. I really appreciate those few sculptors who have recently approached the planet figure community for its input, which for sure improved their figures tremendously. That's the way to go and obviously not the Pegaso way, who seem to stick in the old modus operandus.
Additionally I like to direct your attention to the wonderful mini-replicas the Japanese constantly put out , which are all based on their intimate knowledge of their cultural heritage and done with the typical Japanese focus on the smallest details. If our western sculptors would pay more attention to these brilliant references not much could go wrong. Here is one with Ieyasu and shaved head and top not.

 

[karlw]

I forgot to recommend the epic, 143 minute long Samurai movie "Lord Ieyasu Tokugawa" from 1965 directed by Daisuke Ito, the oldtimer of Japanese jidaigeki, who started with his first Samurai movies in the mid 20th of the last century. It's not officially released in the west but you can get it in good DVD quality with English subtitles at: https://samuraidvd.com/the-rise-of-tokugawa-ieyasu/
By the way you can save costs (international postage) by ordering the digital files, incl. cover, only. Just put in the request by mail !