Poste-militaire Vs Pegaso! (old Vs New)

[kagemusha]

Thanks Hendryk, I was about to point out that several Of PM figures had good dynamism such as you point out and, included should be the native american pairing of JH-06 Crow Warrior and JH-07 Black Foot Warrior, along with JH-09 Ugrain warrior C1150 (mounted).

Ron

 

[yellowcat]

Why PM, a company so successful and qualitative, closed? It could monopolize the market for a long time .... someone may explain to me?

Ray Lamb retired. We all retire one day from our work.
May be planetfigure could do an article interview on Ray. That would be great.

 

[bagelman1952]

I wasn't going to enter this debate because I have never done a Pegaso figure and I am a great lover of the original Poste Militaire stuff. However I cannot quite grasp one of the arguments that some members are putting forward about PM being predominently static figures and Pegaso being in action poses. When casting, an arm is an arm and a torso is a torso and the joint where they meet is static whatever the pose of the figure. Surely it should make no difference if the arm is throwing a spear or if it is hanging loosely down by the side of the figure standing at ease. In any event there is nothing to prevent a good fit except shoddy production and QC.

 

[Blue Thunder]

Well, I would like to add my 2 cents regarding this matter.

First, the Poste Militaire range saw its highlight times way back in the early nineties and started in the seventies, remember the Hinchcliff Samurai?

And on the other hand Pegaso Models keeps releasing figures to present day but started much later the race



Well, with this I intend to mean several things. The first is that the dimension of the range is completely different. For each Poste Militaire figure you can almost compare it with 10 Pegaso Figures: Here is a Samurai ... Here are ten Samurais, here is a Knight ... here are ten knights ...


Poste Militaire has quite few figures, but each single one of them is amazing. On the other hand, in my personal opinion, the Pegaso Range has many brilliantly executed pieces but also have many pieces that ... are just another one to the catalogue. Take the Platoon range, for example: For me that range is only of moderate quality, some figures are put to shadow by some remarkable Dragon injection molded figures, not to mention the Alpine range.


About the dynamic, I think it happens the same: For each dynamic Poste Militaire figure ... you find ten dynamic Pegaso figures. But the reverse is again true: For each static Poste Militaire figure ... you find ten static Pegaso Figures.



And we also have to define "dynamic". for example, yesterday we were discussing busts. The Pawnee brave, the very first one, has a small rotation in the neck, however, this small twist gives the figure an incredible dynamic and makes it an extraordinary eye catcher: There are quite few busts so good as this regarding body attitude. After all you only have a fraction of the body to transmit motion.



Finally we have fashions and trends. This is another aspect. Let's find figures of the 90's with extreme dynamics? ... Ups ... they are hard to find! One, two, three ...


Now think of present times: Would you like to see static Pegaso mounted templar Knights? I am pretty sure none of you! Those pieces are so beautifully composed and transmit so much drama!

And now, let's think reversely again: Would you love to see dynamic mounted Poste Militaire Samurais? Oh no! Please never! The immense emotion those pieces carry rely a lot in the way the horse walks slowly. But things are not all the time like this: The Red Lancer, 20 years later is still one of the most sublime miniatures ever sculpted!


And how fast he rides

 

[DEL]

A really interesting debate but it's a bit like comparing apples and pears each companies production is what it is. Each reflects the styles and trends of the times and the market.......Actually Blue Thunder post above has, I think, pretty much hit the nail on the head. There's no doubt the modelling world would be a much poorer place without the skills of Ray Lamb influencing to the talented sculptors and producers who followed.
Cheers
Derek

 

[gerryj199]

This has been a fascinating discussion to say the least. For years I collected figures of all sorts but never seemed to find the time to actually make them. Now for the first time in decades I'm settled in one place and have almost no business travel and so can actually start the hobby I've wanted all along.

So I'm really pretty new to the hobby and to most of the manufacturers but I have tried to make both Pegaso and PM kits. What I have noticed with the kits that I own is that the smaller Pegaso kits seem to be of pretty good quality, but once I get to mounted figures the 'quality' goes off the rails. By quality I include the fit of the parts, the amount of flash that needs to be trimmed, the amount of filling and filing needed and (a big one for me) the complexity of assembly. As I have stated in other posts, some of my mounted kits from Pegaso would cause Dr Octopus to have problems assembling them because of problems in all of these areas. I have already decided that it will take a minor miracle to get me to buy Pegaso ever again even though they are really, really nice guys.

My experience with PM is only with their foot figures so far, although I have 2 of their mounted Samurai in the wings, and those foot figures have been excellent in every respect.

Also, IMHO the 2 Stormtrooper figures I have are of excellent quality and required almost no cleanup.

As for some of the other points raised I'd say the following:
1. I think it's reasonable for Pegaso to charge what they have to to make a profit and a decent living. I don't begrudge that to anyone, and if they can have a successful company with those prices and products then fair play to them. However, their products no longer work for me because I don't think they put sufficient effort into the product experience and that includes not just the dynamism of the pose, it includes the factors I mentioned above. If I wanted to build things instead of painting them I'd buy Lego.
2. I Think the original question about why modern Pegaso products don't match the same quality as older PM ones is a good one. We must have had advances in casting technology, metallurgy, QC techniques and tooling since then. And I'm absolutely certain that you can get better quality casts. I've just had some in 28mm from Fife & Drum. They were nearly perfect. And personally, I don't think volume is an excuse for poor quality. Go buy an iPad to see mass quality at work.
3. I'd also like to say that this forum is an amazing resource and I'd like to thank those of you with your expertise and knowledge who are willing to share. I have really appreciated all the help and opinions that I've gotten from the site.

Finally, (and I know this is a long post), no one has mentioned the PM Orleans French Trumpeter and French Officer Standard Bearer in 90mm. Can anyone share their experience with these? They look great but I'd love to know if THEY are of good quality before I shell out that much money.

Best wishes to all.
Gerry

 

[Helm]

Gerry I have never built the two figures in question but I have seen them and they appear to be to the usual high standard. Best of luck with them, they do go on EBay but with all the usual caveats that that implies, personally I am saving for a mounted samurai myself and will go straight to Bonaprtes for it to be sure it's all there

Steve

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

Gerry, I have no experience of either of these two figures, but I do have a 'Mounted Samurai', and both of the 'Red-Lancer', figures. All, (One currently) of which have been fantastic to work on. I cannot see any reason why you should not be able to buy with confidence. However!.. On looking at the 'Standard-Bearer', It might be worth keeping in mind the equation, of 'Pose' vs 'Weight displacement! (Whatever the maker). These are very heavy figures, and couple of guys in this disscussion have experienced, 'Collapse'. (from various makers), as the pose cannot maintain the weight over a period of time. So before I buy! I think about how easy will it be to reinforce, without the Pins, being obvious. My own rule of thumb is 'Three feet on the ground' or the third foot as near as possible! so that groundwork can be used to disguise the pinning, to distribute the weight. Anyway just a thought.

PS, Love the 'Dr Octopus', analogy. Iv'e felt like that more than once.

Regards,

Mark.

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

Thanks,. 'Blue Thunder. Its, ironic that, two of the figures you mentioned in your post, Pegaso, Templar Knight, and P/M's Red Lancer! are the two which I have sat side by side, on my work table! Both dynamic in pose, and look very impressive, .. yet..., are so different in quality and cost. which led me to this original question of why? Given the 'Tech', advancements of today! Is, their this 'Difference'.

 

[bagelman1952]

Gerry, I painted up two of the PM new orleans trumpeters as commissions when they first came out and can honestly say it was a beautiful figure in so many ways. The casting was perfect and the kit assembled easily. I bid on one on ebay a couple of months ago but lost out on it. I will do it again one day.

 

[yellowcat]

Thanks,. 'Blue Thunder. Its, ironic that, two of the figures you mentioned in your post, Pegaso, Templar Knight, and P/M's Red Lancer! are the two which I have sat side by side, on my work table! Both dynamic in pose, and look very impressive, .. yet..., are so different in quality and cost. which led me to this original question of why? Given the 'Tech', advancements of today! Is, their this 'Difference'.

I also have some 90mm samurai figures from Pegaso and PM. Side by side comparsion, both sculptings are great but the casting on the Pegaso samurais are awful. The details are soft. Looks like they are hand casted. I wish the Pegasos' are casted by PM.

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

@ Yellowcat, Don't say that! I would be 'Bankrupt', within a month...... ...Oh, but the thought!!!

 

[yellowcat]

I also have at least two or three each PM Orleans French Trumpeter and French Officer Standard Bearer in my grey army. Both are super fantastic sculpts with dynamic pose and action. I recalled seeing both built and mounted on a same base as a diorama in one of the old magazine.

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

Yellowcat, ( Jerryj199), Might be interested in those. See above! However, two or three each! What have you got??... A 'Grey-Continent', never mind, a Grey Army.

 

[abbo]

Have painted both .Fantastic quality.The trumpeter is well balanced and has been standing on one leg for about
18 years now.The officer lasted about a month before he started to drop so had to prop him up.
The Ugrian Warrior has a resin horse and he has been standing on one leg for a good few years but I have to bend the standard
Back to shape on a regular basis.
Martin

 

[kagemusha]

Well, I have to say, this has been one of the best discussions I have seen on PF. I personally have learned a great deal from it and enjoyed it immensely. For me, it will always be PM before Pegaso however, today I got an early birthday present in the form of Pegaso's latest bust, the Gaul Chieftain ! I am going to be 100% honest now, it is superb. Ok, I know it has been pointed out that it is far from historically correct but, I don't care. This is going to be a real pleasure to paint. Perfect fit of all parts with minimal clean-up of any of the kit. Why am I telling you this? Well, inside the box is a QC slip courtesy of the casters, who just happen to be...............YS Castings. YS Masterpieces produce some gorgeous busts of their own as is common knowledge but, my point is, during this discussion, very little has been said about who casts what for Pegaso. We all know Ray cast PM's kits but, it took this little piece of paper to make me realise I had given no thought to who is casting what for Pegaso and are they the guilty party when it comes to QC. Just a thought.

Ron

 

[Blue Thunder]

Derek and Mark, thank you!


I would just like to reinforce what yellowcat and other fellow members are, justifiably, complaining:

I also have some 90mm samurai figures from Pegaso and PM. Side by side comparsion, both sculptings are great but the casting on the Pegaso samurais are awful. The details are soft. Looks like they are hand casted. I wish the Pegasos' are casted by PM.

This has happened to me before too and with other brands as well. For example Knight Models.



What I would like to emphasise, is that the stake group we represent here are the consumers. This means, we are the ones that make the economy of this industry to spin. Without us, there are only stocks picking dust. In the factories, in the shops, and so on.


And the profile we have is quite easy to see that we are a highly demanding group. We pay for small metal pieces values starting in the $30 / 25€ and ending in the 300$ / 250€ range. So we recognize in this pieces enough added value to pay that price.


And here comes the issue I would like to focus: Nothing can be a worst consumer experience than to buy such a highly priced miniature just to discover two things:

The marketing package and presentation shows one thing of an expecting degree of quality
The content, what is inside, what we really want to have (not the photo on the box) shows something disappointing. Namely lack of crispness and soft detail which only shows the real quality is not upon the same level of expectation to the price we paid. Think of a mobile phone that disappointed you, did you ever bought another of the same brand? It is quite hard to do so.


Keeping this on topic, I am yet to find a Poste Militaire figure that has faults in its castings. Currently, a brand such as Andrea takes the same praise, but brands like Pegaso and as I stated Knight Models still have a path to improve. If one has a standard, all others to succeed must reach the same standard.


Another point that annoys me is the degree of photograph manipulation some brands practice. I loved the purity of the Poste Militaire white primed pieces against a black background: What you see is what you will take, but ... without wanting to create friction here in the comunity I would love to see other brands taking the same practice.

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

Ron, a very good point!... are the different moulds for figures, Busts, Mounted-Figures, given to different casting manufacturers? which are employed by the 'Pegaso', company! and who's responsibility is it to assure quality standard?...... I would assess the Parent name. However, it intrigued me about your little, Q/C, slip from YS. so I had a look at two of my unstarted kits, One Napoleonic figure, and a Teutonic Knight. Neither had any slip of paper. Thats not to say they were not there, as there maybe the possibility, that I disgarded them whilst assesing the kit.... But a very interesting point.

Mark.

 

[Tubby-Nuts-REMOVED]

By the way Ron, .......... 'HAPPY BIRTHDAY',.......

 

[yellowcat]

I am pretty sure only the Pegaso resin kit comes with a QC slip from the caster.