RECASTERS !!!

[Adrian Cowdry]

I agree Adrian, stopping it is a massive dilemma and there are no complete answers.

Your explanation of how some people will buy older figures, even if recasts highlights my point as I also suspect those same people will also buy modern ones.

This calls for a whole new approach where I think the manufacturer has to release and get a return and then run.
When I purchased the David Grieve range it still held a currency value. If a manufacturer was now to decide to sell a range, for whatever reasons, the value of the masters is probably worthless if they have been recast.

Imagine, all those thousands of pounds spent on masters not worth anything. This will only get worse, master figures can no longer be classed as assets but a commodity to get a return and then to throw, the same as rubber and resin. The recasters don't cast everything but monitor and cherry pick pieces that they see getting frequent publicity.

If the return and costs have been made, enticed by the low availability, it has to then be accepted that any recaster will make some money but at least the manufacturer has got in first. This may even deter recasting as I doubt they will hold any trading value, the recaster will struggle to get hold of the piece and this may eveb bring some recast customers back to the genuine manufacturers as modellers want, hunt or have no choice but to buy the real deal early.

This highlights how bad it is for everyone and only one possible approach, but it inevitable that in order to get that special piece you want, will probably start costing more.

An excellent reply and the Kit Builders article is possibly one of the best on the subject of recasting - Garage Kits are much more limited than the historical figures - I make both so I feel I have insight into this. BTW Kitbuilders is one of the best magazines for modellers - a little outside of the box concentrating on garage kits and movie subjects but an awful lot can be learned for those in the figure model hobby.

I think it is easy to start at the top line and that is recasting in most of it's forms i.e. bootlegging it is undesirable. Mainly from the manufacturers side.

As for modellers buying new or modern released subjects that have been recast I am not so sure - if a Bravo 6 figure costs around £12.00 and a recast is say a third less and not in a Bravo 6 box and has a miss lined seam (many recasts do) and or flashing then I would say the Bravo 6 original will sell in favour of the recast and to be honest for a recaster to recast such an item would probably not be worthy as to make the mold would be as costly as the maufacturer making the mold - the difference is that the manufacturer has the master item to pay for.

However if we take say Nuts Planets Berserk Bust - if the buzz was taken off for that particular model and it was recast - it would be an unsuspecting lot who would be buying a recast as where could it be sold apart from say a show or in a few countries that do not have scruples. As soon as a recast Berserk was advertised anywhere chances are a vigilant figure modeller will warn others. Of course that cannot stop the unsuspecting buying from such a company. But it is the seasoned figure modeller who will baulk at seeing a Berserk titled Viking Growler or some such.

Lastly Gra30 your point about those who buy recasts returning to the genuine manufacturers - I would venture that those who buy recasts have never strayed from the genuine items. Those who seek recasts of say AC Miniatures - we all agree that Andy's kits are sublime - but shipping to the UK can make the cost prohibitive for some and that is where I would say one of the problems lies that has recasters jumping on the band wagons - Swash Designs are another lot - before Fields of Glory had the Swash items the cost to get a set from Japan was extremely prohibitive - turning 54mm figures that should be in the £15 arena into £30 figures. AC Miniatures suffer a similar plight the figure's are reasonably priced but to be shipped from down under and then pay customs fees the figures are ramped up. So far I have not seen AC recast - to be honest I haven't seen many figures of that type recast - none that I can recall - but I have seen Pegaso, Scale 75 and Alexandros - all without the beautiful boxes and colour art and of course the all important quality control certificate. Recasts that I avoid. To get back to my point - I don't think figure modellers are in two camps those who build recasts and those who build genuine figures. I think all figure modellers are figure modellers some though look to pay less - and those that do often end up with an inferior figure if they get a recast.

As for that ancient model (BTW it looks like I can get a Barton figure as someone else owns the molds and is casting!) I think even the most moral of us would be tempted if said model was no longer available and the modeller had been gagging for that figure for many years to fill an empty space on their shelves.

 

[Gra30]

It's EBay Adrian where these are being sold, cheap kits and cheap shipping, as stu has pointed out the feedback of people saying great recast says it all. The most recent had copies from Nuts, MJ, Stus and mine, all relatively new pieces and had sold these pieces. The modelling forums and community may warn but it doesn't seem to have any affect. The forums are only a fraction of the modellers out there and those buying prove there is a market for the berserker you used as an example and it most probably will be recast if not already.

Some may baulk at it but many don't. As you know, it's viable to cast anything as the master costs are the biggest fraction, if they are casting themselves of course it would be worth it.
As stu has pointed out to me, the better quality of cast to market the easier it is for the recaster as they have a near perfect copy to remould

The shipping is another area altogether as that cannot be helped. There are means to help the customer by marking as a gift etc to help on import duty but to me that has no justification for buying recasts. If you can't afford it you can't afford it, personally I don't think that is the reason a piece is copied, the guy I mention at the beginning didn't ship to the UK knowing he was copying our stuff, his audience was anywhere else so I think his drive was to sell fakes not to target areas where post is expensive.

I am of course referring to illegal recasts without ownership or rights

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I might not be hollier than any. I think most of us have commited an act that could result in prison if caught. We are all humans who make mistakes and sometimes bad decisions.

I do however not promote or try to justify and excuse such behaviour. Neither am I the devils advocate trying to argue that two wrongs makes one right.
But I know that if you are screwing people on a regular basis you are going to end up in trouble when you piss the wrong person off. That trouble could be the law or it could be on the other side of the law. Not a threat, just my experience.

At the end of the day, these products are not vital for us, even if some wrongly might think so? Neither can I cope with the view some sport that we should be entitled to buy everything we want at the price we can afford. And if you have a stash of more than 8 kits you shouldnt complain about prices if you can afford such a large stock.

Enough rant.

Cheers
Janne Nilsson

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

See that is the problem - fleabay - I don't go looking for models on ebay - well hang on I do want the Pegaso Foreign Legion Camerone set and I missed it from a greek seller two years ago - still kicking myself!

But my mentality is not for looking at ebay for new kits I tend to go straight to the manufacturer.

That is the problem for all when it comes to recasts. Ebay offers a large amount of anonymity.

However Janne is right some day they recasters will meet the wrong person they recast their molds from..."swinging a baseball bat in my hand!"

 

[Alex]

I don't get it.. Even if the kit is out of production, how can you justify buying a recast ?
Let's take Pegaso and Andrea figures for example. Those companies are not making millions by selling figures. They do it because they love what they do. Whenever you go to a major show, you bet you are going to see one of the guys running these companies (Pietro, etc.) How can you talk to them and visit them at their booth while you re buying recasts in their back ?
This world of ours is small and it is not all about making money or buying for the least amount possible. It is about enjoying this art and sharing it with others. If one kit is X amount of money so be it : buy it or do not.
On every 90mm figure I paint, I will spend more than a hundred hours... For a 100$ kit, that's 1$ an hour of pure fun and relaxation. Come on !

Regards

Alex

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

It isn't to justify buying a recast.

It is more the question of are you tempted? If a figure has been out of production for years and you see a recast would you be tempted? Can everyone who is interested in figure painting put their hand on their heart and reply in the negative?

Thanks to one of the vigilant attendees on this site Barton Figures are still available - I am making my inquiries.

However I am certain that there are many of us who are morally sound when it comes to figures that should a particular figure come up that is sorely required and it is a recast - I would say that thinking twice would be where that modeller is do I? don't I?

I would lay money that all those who baulk at recasts have grown up having taped an album instead of buying their own copy.

Pegaso, Andrea and the rest may manufacture because of the love of the hobby but they do not do it for love! They need to pay the bills and wages. And recasters are a bain to the original manufacturers - we may be unscrupulous on this forum but many are not and these are the ones who will buy recasts of the late releases because they won't pay for X at Y price...There is of course is a solution price the model at what you'd expect a recaster to sell it for - the cost of setting up molds and run enough to make a good profit will actually be a waste of time as the profit margin will be small. But that would mean Pegaso would need to make 1000's of figures and sell at 20% above cost of materials and labour - this would be bad economics though.

I cannot profess that I know the solutioon short of dealing with my own conscience. Recasters can only do harm to the hobby but all who prey on the manufacturers and re cast originals are certainly criminal in their activity and it is morally wrong to buy such an item...but ......I think we can all understand the compulsive notion of possibly getting that elusive figure even if it is a recast.

And while we can all say no figure is not available - one will turn up - well yes that is often true but in my opinion the opposite is true and if you start on collectors prices for an original that too can be off putting - I want the Pegaso Camerone set one will turn up - it's only been out of production a few years, I don't intend to get a recast - but will I be able to say that in three or four years? I can't answer for definite.

 

[John Bowery]

Just a reminder, that this is not just a figure problem but a problem in general, normally called "Knock offs". Inc. the magazine for march lists $350 BILLION in global online sales annually. Their is counterfeit technology called "brandshield or knowem but it has a monthly cost. Monster headphones marks its headphones with secret microscopic dots and some of its packaging has invisible ink which can be detected with a special reader. This gives proof to the "ebays" etc to have the sites shut down. Some ebay users have posted guides to spotting fake Furstenberg dresses or Longchamp bags.
Unfortunately figures are just a drop in the bucket on the total knockoff market.
Their is always someone willing to buy a knockoff.
Cheers
John

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

And that is how the larger companies can police this situation.

None of us like to be ripped off and knock offs are rip offs.

 

[Martin64]

Will this discussion lead anywhere? Will somebody who buys a recast buy the original if there are no more recasts? Is there a serious threat to a company or the hobby as a whole if some products from different lines are copied? Would things change for the producers if each of us is content with a grey army of eight originals made up from limited runs that has the value of half of my car? Is there any solution for this situation that can be found at PF? Is it worth to verbally kill each other for different point of views?

The origin of the current excitement and problems might be the fact that it is possible to order copies in large numbers at a Chinese platform (will not mention the name for obvious reasons - one is that I am tired to read all the ever repeating moans ).
It might be enough that on this Chinese platform smaller companies offer their professional services to copy all kind of statues, miniatures etc. and that the minimum order of a copy is several hundred units - and as far as I could see among these are the copies offered currently. So not every "recaster" on ebay might do the copies by himself but is in a business.
No good news I know but if an action is considered by the copyright holders that post over here send me a PM and I give you more details.

Some years back the regular distribution line for most of all the nice models I own was through dealers, local hobby shops and sole distributors. And then came the internet and now everybody is offering his own line and delivers and advertises his goods worldwide by himself and there is no longer a need to share your profit which you in many cases make as a second income - great, isn`t it? Online-shops without a real shop and costs incurred were born and offered competitive prices generating a second income for many of their owners and helping the customers to financially manage the stream of new releases - wonderful.....
So the Local Hobby shops and mags which depended upon income from advertisements disappeared or adapted......Margins increased for some manufacturers when kits were produced by cheap labour in the Far East from small companies who might now have learned to produce good copies on their own....

Today customers have a much more broader choice of perfect subjects than ever before, can join any model club online (PF), get hints about better results from friends around the world and order whatever they like from wherever they prefer - including recasts - without raising from their chair in front of the computer.
- Will we turn times back - even if we want? If yes, will things come out different? Now where`s my Delorean?


My two cents,
Cheers, Martin

 

[Gaudin]

This question occurred to me whilst catching up with the thread - do we actually know the scale of the problem in terms of volume of their sales? I.e. how many people actually buy recasts?

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

Two good questions and I doubt we'll ever know the answers - As for the De Lorean - make sure the flux capacitor is in tip top working order!

Another point has reared it's head

"Some years back the regular distribution line for most of all the nice models I own was through dealers, local hobby shops and sole distributors. And then came the internet and now everybody is offering his own line...."

The advent of the internet has killed off the model shops and sole distributors - if I want anything I can get it from the net the pleasure of physically going to a model shop is now denied me - my local model shop is 20 miles away and open only three days a week. I can't even get Vallejo paints locally now!

Recasting has become an evil part of figure modelling. If you as manufacturers make great figures that are popular then recasting is inevitable especially when you manufacturers stop producing that figure - someone else will do it - a Catch 22 if ever I saw one.

 

[kagemusha]

I find it sad that the quality of kits from CGS....Stormtroopers et al....are becoming their very downfall....
As previously mentioned...a kit from them is as good as a 'master' to the re-caster....at a fraction of the cost the manufacturers have to pay.
One thing that puzzles me...who owns the 'copyright' to a given piece....is it with the sculptor or manufacturer....surely a copyright infringement is easier to pursue....from a legal standpoint...with higher penalties....?
IMHO...we can debate this till the cows come home....they aren't going away.....and the choice for the buyer is a simple one...
If we choose to buy from a known re-caster...then we become part of the problem...a case of....'who polices the police'

 

[kenshin393]

20 miles to your nearest model shop? I lie awake at night dreaming of a model shop 20 miles away! 100 mile round trip just to get games workshop paints lol! Serves me right for moving to the county that time forgot.
Anyway, recasters, I buy all my stuff from manufacturers so I shall sit here on my high horse upon my moral high ground sadly bereft of modelling supplies.

 

[OldTaff]

Right, chaps, I need some serious advice, please. I have just been looking at an Ebay site based in the Russian Federation, called "strong-seller[1173*] A lot of the figures on sale are from EK Castings and the St. Petersburg stable, but I think I recognise some from 'other' sources, although they are not in my periods of interest. Is this ,dare I ask, a 'knock-off' site, or is it OK to buy from? Several of the Napoleonics I haven't seen before from other manufacturers, only as studio painted figures. I don't want to patronise any dealer selling pirated stuff!
Planeteers' help will be much appreciated,
Cheers, Alan

 

[Funky50]

Have to agree that Ebay has to shoulder a lot of the blame for this I recently took an afternoon to report a recasters whole 30 odd sales twice and so did one or two other Planeteers and ebay did absolutely sod all he's still selling his crappy recasts mostly All young's busts Disgraceful ....Kevin

 

[Gaudin]

Alan,
EK casting figures are made exclusively of white metal, always in one piece, always toned with black oil and dirt cheap directly from manufacturer. Yet, believe it or not, also subject to recasts. Bastion in Moscow is notorious for that and I suspect its their shop, should have Andrea, Pegaso and Chronos mixed in there. This particular shop has been discussed in threads before, when Tecumsea was still a member.

 

[OldTaff]

Cheers, Gaudin, that's a helpful addition to my scant knowledge

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

20 miles to your nearest model shop? I lie awake at night dreaming of a model shop 20 miles away! 100 mile round trip just to get games workshop paints lol! Serves me right for moving to the county that time forgot.
Anyway, recasters, I buy all my stuff from manufacturers so I shall sit here on my high horse upon my moral high ground sadly bereft of modelling supplies.

That made my day - and I hope the move to the country was worth more than a model shop you can always make the pilgrimage to the shows - Hornchurch in three weeks!!!

As for the figures being so good it is their downfall I agree a sad statement. And yet because they are so good we buy them (originals).

As for copyright - if I commission a piece and pay for it I surely own it - if I spot a recast of my item yes I can pursue the copyright - but in this country such a chase would be in the small claims court - I doubt anyone has paid £5,000 for a master figure so anything under £5k will be small claims...then the cost of pursuing such would be uneconomical because most of these culprits are overseas.

As for the point that they ain't going away - it is a Catch 22 that we are all caught up in - the majority of the figure makers that are observant on here and in many other places tend to be able to spot a recast (the immoral and the rookies are those who will buy recasts) - the rookies need help to avoid them those immoral types we cannot save - unless we send them to the Penguin and they get religion! (Not the one in Gotham)

But again I come back to the point if you want an item that is out of production and has been for some time I think the most moral of us will be tempted to buy a recast if it fills that gap.

The main point is we will never see the last of knock offs as for policing such it comes down to our own morality.

By the way it seems the Barton Miniature lead is now defunct - the website that has them listed seems to have last had activity in 2012.

 

[Ray Stout]

Alan, I've bought from this guy, and , although I recognise SOME models from other manufacturers, that areOOP there are I believe SOME origonal figs. I took a 10 year "holiday" from this hobby, and lost touch with current releases. I dont touch the ones I KNOW to be copies, but you're right about the Napoleonic figs. The ST. Cyr fig is stuning, but I'm told that the Murat fig. could be from Art Girona. I DO know though, that his 75mm range are all copies of Romeo and Pegaso, so steer clear. regards, Ray

 

[Ray Stout]

p.s. He sells from 4 companies including one in the Ukraine. and does an extensive range of Russian Medevel and Swedish Jarls.