Regarding recasters....and a couple of questions ?

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akaryu

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Hello all,
On his FB page Raul Garcia Latorre posted a worrying message regarding recasters and their customers and the impact on the genuine manufacturers. Coming from one of the well-known sculptors in the field, with comments from many other names from the hobby, this is extremely worrying indeed. It should be read by anyone caring about the future of our hobby!

https://www.facebook.com/raul.garci...R65Lbs2bRBx4cBsbbKG_i09M&fref=nf&__tn__=kCH-R


Pierre
 
I read his plight this morning on FB. But does it surprise us? A well known problem that does seem to get bigger every year. The figure business seems to be more prone to it then say the plastic aircraft industry.

I can imagine that it's (technically) easier to copy a bust then to copy a 600 part Tamiya aircraft kitsprues and all or whatever. Recasting of figures seems to fit in the much wider spectrum of counterfeit goods which may include everything from medecines, perfume, expesive leather goods to machine and even aircraft parts.

Let me be quite clear: recasters are scum. It all has to do with how their conscience has developed. Perhaps combined with living in a poor country then it would be more a survival thing.

But personally I think the buyers ( The Market - demand side) are worse. Shitbags. And what is worse probably (or hopefully) even to stupid to hold a brush let alone to achieve a decent paintjob with it. They seem to be everywhere. And yes why not on PF too? Statistically speaking they are among us dear Planeteers!

And it all seems to be caused by a general unwillingness or unability to pay what most righteous modellers would basically consider to be a fair price. Figures especially 90 mm mounted ones are an investment. Yes they are expensive.

When I ordered Pegaso's Timurlane's Cataphract cavalryman I had to swallow before coughing up €200,00. But for that amount I get the real thing. And I help to survive a small company that makes excellent figures. And coincidentally I also keep the artists who create the masters afloat.

What makes me vomit is these endless discussions about the price of models. I grew up respecting what the seller wants. The purpose of life is not trying to get everything for free or cheap.

But as I said it seems to be part of a general pattern. A good illustration of this is the practice of buying tutorial video's and then copying them and selling them on internetplatforms. That is called piracy if my memory serves me right.

Difficult problem. Hard to solve. Basically it is a behavioral and hence a psychological (= criminogen) problem. Ever thought about that? If you engage in priracy or buy recasts it tells something about you. Doesn't it?

If I cannot afford something I accept that. But what I don't do is go out at night, break into a shop and steal it. Because that is what buying recasts is. Theft. Stealing. And that's a crime.

Ergo: if you buy recasts you are a bloody criminal. Plain and simple:D:p
 
Bloody criminal is being polite...
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Wise words Rossbach, very well put!
And a really very sad situation with both the recasters AND their customers to blame! We may all have had dreams about a nice car and other luxuries, but we drive a car conform our means while enjoying the sight a that elusive Porsche driving by, for we were educated that way. Those of us of a certain age remember a world were the price of something was the worth of that thing, where you only got what you could afford, of a world without discounts or cheap bargains where either you paid what the seller asked or didn't buy at all, very simple really. Customs agents worldwide hunt for fake goods, be it handbags, watches, fashion whatever. Some years ago, on holiday in Crete I wanted to show my grownup children the street where as young officers we used to buy authentic Greek leather goods for the homefront. The street is still there of course, the "leather" shops too, stuffed with FAKE Armani and Gucci and the likes!! Not a single tiny piece of real local leatherware in sight! But the big names can survive this commerce in fake goods; our hobby being in a small niche in the market however it is another story altogether. Something has to be done!

Pierre
 
At Folkestone for a start...could be a public statement on the recasting issue, brought home be hammering some recasts to smithereens. Some makers..Rico Chia, lots actually, give stickers, tags of certification...so painters might be encouraged to display they pieces with the certifications on the bases..
 
At Folkestone for a start...could be a public statement on the recasting issue, brought home be hammering some recasts to smithereens. Some makers..Rico Chia, lots actually, give stickers, tags of certification...so painters might be encouraged to display they pieces with the certifications on the bases..


I have contacted Adrian Hopwood to see if something can be sorted but obviously it goes without saying that the organisers of both Euro Miniature Expo and FigureWorld will never ever support recasts being anywhere near the shows

See also this thread https://www.planetfigure.com/threads/so-vital-support-only-genuine-sellers.117742/

Nap
 
Hi Guys

I have a question :

what's the feeling on copies being made from originals of models by company's that have gone out of business for example

Kirin, Seil , Linjo etc

Appreciate some thoughts

Nap
 
Morning Nap,
A good but muted point on out of production figures & busts but where do you draw the line???
I have modeling colleauges who are holding onto the holy grail of OOP models for the big pay day when it becomes the must buy model (& before the model company release it again with new decal sheets) Do I condone this as profiteering or accept it as part of the modelling community fraternity???.... On the other hand, I enjoy moulding & casting for my local club to a point I made my own pressure compressor & vacc unit (I am an engineer..honest!) & cast the lads diorama parts & spares for conversions & one offs BUT with the provisal that no copy items are to be sold & I cast strictly for myself & the club. Is that wrong???
I was approached to make some items for a sci fi modeler to sell as copies but politely told him to go jump & he was taken aback as he saw it as making some easy money on his part!!! some people have no consious or guilt!
it will always be a talking point on OOP or hard to source figures but we can only rely on each others morals & values to what is acceptable?
So my final thought is Copying any person or company Models, figures or busts for their own gain is Theft & piracy....period!!! it will reduce the hobby to a point where we will look back on this figure forum & say 'remember the days when you could pick up some great figures to paint, now no-one does it anymore!!!.
these are my own thoughts & look forward to other comments.
Mark D
 
Hi Guys

I have a question :

what's the feeling on copies being made from originals of models by company's that have gone out of business for example

Kirin, Seil , Linjo etc

Appreciate some thoughts

Nap

Good morning all!

Quite a question Nap to start the day.
My two cents of thought are simple: for me it is acceptable if someone bought the rights to the originals, otherwise I'd say !No Way! They are out of production and that's it. Sooner or later some might turn up when someone sells his/hers grey army, otherwise they remain the ones that escaped us. We can't all buy Napoleon's dentures or Herr Goering chamberpot, can we! We can't all own a Gutenberg bible or Van Gogh's sunflowers either. But when the original moulds were acquired in a perfect legal way, I don't see a problem except perhaps for the greedy ones hoarding some stash in the hope it might one day obtain as much money as that Van Gogh!
One example of a perfectly legal way of doing things that comes to mind is the reissue by Steve Kirtley of some of Augie Rodriguez' samurai busts, originally produced by Jim Johnson of Fort Duquesne. But that of course is miles and miles away from what we call recasters. I'm afraid I've used up my two cents on the matter, but to put it very simply: a big YES to LEGAL reissue of OOP and a very vehement NO WAY to any other form of recasting for whatever reason one might come up with!

cheers,
Pierre
 
Hi Guys

Thanks for the responses ..some good thoughts raised

Hopefully we will see more responses

As for me like Pierre I don't see a problem with legal reissues but it's a quicksand filled area .....but a very resounding NO to any other form of recasting

Nap
 
Again, I find myself trying to think of a way around it but am struggling.


I agree that it's not a easy route and certainly not being negative but can these theiving scum be fully stopped ...I doubt it realistically but at least we can try to make it as awkward as possible and of course buy only from genuine company's .

Nap
 
Here's another 2 questions

If you have searched all available on line auction sites , shows ,forums etc for years .......is it okay to get a recast in this case ?

My thought is if you really really want it then using a recast is/ couldbe an option ...it's all down to personal values .

Do members see a difference between a pirated copy or one cast from a original from a company long finished trading ?

Nap
 
I have contacted Adrian Hopwood to see if something can be sorted but obviously it goes without saying that the organisers of both Euro Miniature Expo and FigureWorld will never ever support recasts being anywhere near the shows

See also this thread https://www.planetfigure.com/threads/so-vital-support-only-genuine-sellers.117742/

Nap
Noble. But I think that the first thing visitors upon entering whatever venue should see is a very clear sign that recasts are not being tolerated and that apporpriate action will be taken against sellers of recasts on the venue as well as those who enter recasts in a competition.
 
My oh my, you're really making us think Nap! And that on a sunny day!

1. If you have searched all available on line auction sites , shows ,forums etc for years .......is it okay to get a recast in this case ? No! A recast is a recast, whatever excuse you might come up with.

2. My thought is if you really really want it then using a recast is/ could be an option ...it's all down to personal values . IMO it never could. When something is not available it is not available, end of story, however much you crave it! We all have wanted things we can't possibly get and we just have to live with that. It is indeed a question of personal values or the lack of it, as is theft, murder, sexual assault, you name it.

3. Do members see a difference between a pirated copy or one cast from a original from a company long finished trading ? Yes, very clearly! A recast or pirated copy is made WITHOUT consent of the creator/owner, a legal copy is made WITH consent of the creator/owner of the original. May be a tiny detail for some, but not for me.

Pierre
 
Hi Guys

Thanks again for comments appreciate

This is going nowhere again:cautious:

I tend to agree with you to be honest recasting is a viscous circle ....which although may get broken at times ...joins back together all too quickly

The questions were just to get members thoughts ...there is no magic solution ...I think it's all about morales and needing to keep on about the ever ongoing recasting situation

Nap
 
action will be taken sellers of recasts on the venue

I think most recasters aren't daft enough to ply their trade at shows. At least I've never seen anyone openly selling recasts at a show. I did hear second-hand of one such case a few years back, and the offender was swiftly escorted from the premises. Be interesting to know what other (effective) sanctions would you suggest?

as well as those who enter recasts in a competition.

Sounds great in theory, but how do you enforce that one? Or in many cases even tell the difference between a knock-off and the real deal once it's been assembled / filled / painted / possibly converted etc.?

- Steve
 
I think most recasters aren't daft enough to ply their trade at shows. At least I've never seen anyone openly selling recasts at a show. I did hear second-hand of one such case a few years back, and the offender was swiftly escorted from the premises. Be interesting to know what other (effective) sanctions would you suggest?



Sounds great in theory, but how do you enforce that one? Or in many cases even tell the difference between a knock-off and the real deal once it's been assembled / filled / painted / possibly converted etc.?

- Steve
Steve: the most important thing is that the organizers of a show make a clear visible statement. Trading and use of illegal products (recasts, illegal copies or whatever) is not allowed.

Can't remember a show that did that. Until now there hasn't been much coordinated action from either manufacturers or show organizers.

And as to how exactly these measures are to be put into practice? Well ...... it's up to them (organizers and manufacturers) to come up with a plan that can be implemented.

That is not my job.
 
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