WIP Roman Signifer bust, 1/9th scale
- Thread starter tonydawe
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tonydawe
A Fixture
Thanks Dimitrios, I agree mate. I'll do my best.
Thanks Gordy. I agree.
Hi Mitsutaka, thank you my friend. I will do my best not to disappoint you.
Thanks Gordy. I agree.
Hi Mitsutaka, thank you my friend. I will do my best not to disappoint you.
Further to your previous posts over armour, standards etc. I think it is very easy to mistake current practice for ancient practice. Now we expect uniformity in our troops, especially when on parade. Even in the field there is a significant degree of uniformity in uniforms worn, weapons used, kit carried. Certainly all soldiers tend to do their own thing, and the longer spent in the field, the less uniform their appearance.
In ancient times in must be remembered that even in workshops, all arms and armour was literally hand made. Armour would be repaired, chain mail links replaced, helmets repaired and re-used. After a battle the victorious soldiers would search the dead, and gather the best kit they could for their own use. As regards the Roman army, it is recognised as being the first truly professional army supported by Roman industry, smiths, armourers etc. There is still disagreement over simple matters, such as whether the tunics worn were bleached linen or red. With any Roman figure there will always be an element of conjecture. The helmet worn by this figure is an Imperial Italic with minimally curved cheekpieces decorated with a temple. The cross bands and cheek piece trim would almost certainly be done in brass. Most Roman figures appear to have Imperial Gallic type helmets, there are very few Imperial Italic on military figures, though I have no idea why this should be so. The Coolus type helmet was also produced in large numbers, but again appears to have been ignored by modelling producers.
I suspect that the most widely worn armour across the legions and auxillaries was chain mail. Lorica segmentata was probably mainly worn by legionaries with lorica squamata also being worn by assorted senior officers and auxillaries (all roman cavalry was auxillary).
I also have this bust on my workbench, but am awaiting an appropriate pedestal (I have mounted my centurion by the same sculptor on a cake pedestal). I have also made a master of a shield and am waiting to see whether or not it will be cast and offered with this kit.
Happy modelling.
Mike
In ancient times in must be remembered that even in workshops, all arms and armour was literally hand made. Armour would be repaired, chain mail links replaced, helmets repaired and re-used. After a battle the victorious soldiers would search the dead, and gather the best kit they could for their own use. As regards the Roman army, it is recognised as being the first truly professional army supported by Roman industry, smiths, armourers etc. There is still disagreement over simple matters, such as whether the tunics worn were bleached linen or red. With any Roman figure there will always be an element of conjecture. The helmet worn by this figure is an Imperial Italic with minimally curved cheekpieces decorated with a temple. The cross bands and cheek piece trim would almost certainly be done in brass. Most Roman figures appear to have Imperial Gallic type helmets, there are very few Imperial Italic on military figures, though I have no idea why this should be so. The Coolus type helmet was also produced in large numbers, but again appears to have been ignored by modelling producers.
I suspect that the most widely worn armour across the legions and auxillaries was chain mail. Lorica segmentata was probably mainly worn by legionaries with lorica squamata also being worn by assorted senior officers and auxillaries (all roman cavalry was auxillary).
I also have this bust on my workbench, but am awaiting an appropriate pedestal (I have mounted my centurion by the same sculptor on a cake pedestal). I have also made a master of a shield and am waiting to see whether or not it will be cast and offered with this kit.
Happy modelling.
Mike
tonydawe
A Fixture
Thanks for your detailed post Mike.
I concur with your comments about the state of a Roman soldier's kit being decidedly less uniform that modern soldiers, and I'm grateful for your advice.
I'd like to see your bust and in particular get some pics of the shield. I'm not aware of the Centurion bust. Do you have any pics you can share of it??
I like the idea of Roman soldiers scavenging corpses on the battlefield for replacement items of equipment. That would make a great vignette.
I concur with your comments about the state of a Roman soldier's kit being decidedly less uniform that modern soldiers, and I'm grateful for your advice.
I'd like to see your bust and in particular get some pics of the shield. I'm not aware of the Centurion bust. Do you have any pics you can share of it??
I like the idea of Roman soldiers scavenging corpses on the battlefield for replacement items of equipment. That would make a great vignette.
Harry
Well-Known Member
There is no actual evidence for any particular colour for the fringes. No coloured representation of a standard of this form has survived.
The notion that the fringes might (note the continual emphasis on might) represent a grass bundle is based on:
1. The independent assertion of two Greco-Roman writers that grass and leaves were Roman standards in archaic times.
Plutarch, The life of Romulus, 8.6: "He led a large force, divided into units of a hundred men, each unit headed by a man who carried a handful of grass and leaves tied around a pole."
Ovid, Fasti, III: "They used to carry a handful of grass on a long shaft."
2. The physical appearance of the objects. Many of them look quite convincingly like a bunch of leaves and/or grass. For example, consider the lowermost object on the standard carried by this typical signifer on Trajan's Column (early 2nd century):
The object immediately above it is a leaf crown. The same basic sculptural technique is used to represent the surface detail of both objects.
3. Roman culture's well known veneration of antiquity and respect for tradition.
Green would seem an appropriate colour for a [presumably] soft fabric object that symbolizes a bunch of grass and/or leaves.
You're totally free to reject this thesis, of course, but I just thought you might have been interested to at least know of the possibility.
One other snippet of information about the colours of standards is the statement of the 1st century Roman encyclopaedist Pliny that "
The Roman centurion, also sculpted by Pete Morton is available from Foxwood Miniatures. Pete provided cheekpieces for an Imperial Gallic helmet for this bust, however I have used the same cheekpieces as for the signifer's Imperial Italic helmet and added ties between the end of the crest box and helmet. I am sure that armourers swopped cheekpieces around to repair battle damage, but have no proof of this.
The bust is currently available on eBay as well (Item number: 150544840849).
Best wishes,
Mike
The bust is currently available on eBay as well (Item number: 150544840849).
Best wishes,
Mike
tonydawe
A Fixture
As you can see, I've started painting the base coast for the Signifer bust.
I liked the idea of painting the squamata armour scales in alternating brass and iron,it helps create a bit more visual interest and breaks up what would otherwise be a large sheet of brass scales.
I'll start painting the face tomorrow and then move on to the shading and highlighting.
Once that's done I'll start on the lion pelt and the rest of the uniform.
Last to be built and painted will be the signum.
As always, I welcome any comments, suggestions or criticism.
I liked the idea of painting the squamata armour scales in alternating brass and iron,it helps create a bit more visual interest and breaks up what would otherwise be a large sheet of brass scales.
I'll start painting the face tomorrow and then move on to the shading and highlighting.
Once that's done I'll start on the lion pelt and the rest of the uniform.
Last to be built and painted will be the signum.
As always, I welcome any comments, suggestions or criticism.
Attachments
megroot
A Fixture
That is really something different. And it is burning into my eyes.
Great work so far Tony.
I like the armour.
Marc
Great work so far Tony.
I like the armour.
Marc
1969
A Fixture
Been looking forward to seeing the painted version of this bust Tony and looks like you will be the man to do it.
Nice idea to go for the two tone armour which adds appeal to the paintwork.
Steve
Nice idea to go for the two tone armour which adds appeal to the paintwork.
Steve
gordy
A Fixture
tonydawe
A Fixture
Hi Marc, I hope your eyes are OK mate!!! Thanks for your comments.
Thanks Steve, I hope this version of the bust looks different from any others. I'm trying my best to make it authentic and historically accurate as possible.
Hi Gordy, thanks mate. The two tone armour certainly helps create a bit more visual interest.
Thanks Steve, I hope this version of the bust looks different from any others. I'm trying my best to make it authentic and historically accurate as possible.
Hi Gordy, thanks mate. The two tone armour certainly helps create a bit more visual interest.
tonydawe
A Fixture
Hi guys,
Here are the latest WIP pics.
I'm steadily working the shadows and highlights into position on the face and lion pelt and added the cheek guards.
I've replaced the cast tassels, hanging from the upside-down thingy at the bottom of the signum, with lengths of twisted fuse wire.
Here are the latest WIP pics.
I'm steadily working the shadows and highlights into position on the face and lion pelt and added the cheek guards.
I've replaced the cast tassels, hanging from the upside-down thingy at the bottom of the signum, with lengths of twisted fuse wire.
Attachments
megroot
A Fixture
Looking really outstanding at the moment.
marc
marc
Great work so far Tony, good idea to replace the tassels.
Carl.
Carl.
FigureLover
A Fixture
Good one Tony, it's getting there and I know you will do a good job.
Ben
Ben
tonydawe
A Fixture
Marc, Carl & Ben, thanks guys. I appreciate your constant support and encouragement.
Harry
Well-Known Member
Good. That's a very refreshing attitude.
Yay! I suggested the "two tone" armour. This Roman anorak can be a bit uncomfortable sometimes but sometimes it pays off. Looking forward to see how this bust progresses. What do you think, are you going to paint the "fringe" green, or just go for red or purple (for which there's no real evidence either)?
sarouman
A Fixture
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2009
- Messages
- 1,894
Great job pal Tony.
In the painting has given the miniature life.
I love or painting the lorica squamata Armour is fantastic
Bravo!!
Alexandros
http://alexminiatures.blogspot.com/
In the painting has given the miniature life.
I love or painting the lorica squamata Armour is fantastic
Bravo!!
Alexandros
http://alexminiatures.blogspot.com/
tonydawe
A Fixture
Hi guys,
I've started work on the signum, base coating the metallic pieces in black. I've decided to paint the tassel fringes in green to please Harry.
The flesh tones on the arm are just basic base coat with a mid highlight colour applied. I've decided to leave the left arm off the bust. It just doesn't seem to fit the look of the bust.
I've continued to paint the lion pelt, and adding shadows and highlights to the helmet and armour.
I've started work on the signum, base coating the metallic pieces in black. I've decided to paint the tassel fringes in green to please Harry.
The flesh tones on the arm are just basic base coat with a mid highlight colour applied. I've decided to leave the left arm off the bust. It just doesn't seem to fit the look of the bust.
I've continued to paint the lion pelt, and adding shadows and highlights to the helmet and armour.
Attachments
hello nice
the missing arm does not detract.you could add an darkish brown line at the back of you pelt.i think lions have this feature with runs from the shoulders to the tail in an very dark line
from the pics i get the feeling the face is slightly underscaled in regards to the helmet..its not to see in side but direct front its looking like an teen wearing an adults steelhelmet.i am i wrong here.its just an feel.
nice done
cheers
the missing arm does not detract.you could add an darkish brown line at the back of you pelt.i think lions have this feature with runs from the shoulders to the tail in an very dark line
from the pics i get the feeling the face is slightly underscaled in regards to the helmet..its not to see in side but direct front its looking like an teen wearing an adults steelhelmet.i am i wrong here.its just an feel.
nice done
cheers
