ATA girl "redo"

[pokrad]

I will probably size it a bit, anyway it has to be squashed so it's hardly recognizable.
Pity, there is no space for the mask too, as it hangs much lower.

 

[pokrad]

In the end decided to do both version, one with cap, and one with helmet

Cap version :

Btw: I was told the face looks very manly and ugly, any tips how to improve the sculpt ?
Honestly, any tips appreciated

 

[Nap]

Hi Pokrad

Liking the piece more , cap looks good , look forward to seeing the helmet version

As for the face , I'm no sculptor but perhaps define the cheeks a bit more , make lips fuller ?

Looking forward to seeing more

Happy sculpting

Nap

 

[JackG]

Well I think those comments may have been a bit harsh.

Compared to the period photo where she is also wearing the side cap, you could make the hat a bit larger. Generally the facial features look a bit too large for the face but the nose is actually rendered slightly narrower in the bridge and main width of the nose at nostril level. Also pay attention to the eyebrow shape - more curvy than angular and thinner on the outer halves.

So took my own advice and touched up in a paint program. Also shorten the height of her left ear and thinner neck but only slightly. Colour wise I reversed the eyes and teeth so they are a yellowish tone while the whites of the eyes are bluish. The mouth was rotated at bit clockwise so the corners are more level and front teeth made longer and erased the bottom teeth. Upper lip a bit more thinner and chin also made broader/rounder.

 

[Nap]

Nice response and advice JackG

What PF is all about

Nap

 

[Rob]

I agree those criticisms were harsh. She is a "real" 20yr old girl from 1942 not some botox stuffed tinder slut from 2023. In honesty the colouration on the renders does not help as it never gets it right.

JackG has given an excellent response.
I like his softening of the nose lines and the more "plucked" line of the eyebrows and the rounder chin is more like the original girl. You could also go more noticeable on the smile lines and the bags under her eyes, you had them more defined in the early versions but lost them with latter "softer" look.

 

[pokrad]

Well I think those comments may have been a bit harsh.

Yap, she is (my wife) always harsh

 

[JackG]

I also think that 2 of the 3 period photos posted she has her head tilted forward slightly or maybe it is camera angle. That could be throwing the proportions off when being rendered in 3D?

Am basing that on comparing the height between eyebrows and eyes of the photo with side cap but the 3D render looks fine as is in this regard. It could be an issue for us the audience when comparing the likeness, so if you could with the next update include an example with the bust titled bit forward?

 

[pokrad]

This is the look of the sculpt when the body is set straight ( I modeled the head to be tilted forward as on the reference).
On the previous renders I aligned the head, not the body...
Also I tried some of the stuff You suggested.

And this is the sculpt without any color (which looks terrible because of dark teeth )

Or even closer angle to the reference (head turned slightly right)

 

[Rob]

With the addition of the side cap she is a lovely looking bust now as a generic "ATA Girl",
If you want her to be a model of Joy Lofthouse I think you need to put more emphasis on her smile lines (in the original image Joy has a really pretty, unrestrained smile) and soften her chin more. Plus, if you are showing the flight helmet, the hairclips.
Also don't forget RAF buttons had an obvious eagle & crown crest, they were not plain studs.

 

[JackG]

I should have mentioned I did make the iris a bit smaller too.

There are other details that could be pointed out, but are more about making her look like Joy and wont necessarily make her more feminine The angle/tilted view should not be showing the inside of her nostrils. The bottom of the ears are higher and mouth should be closer to the nose. Face width looks near spot on by the cheeks but forehead shape is different as the hairline around the temples has been rendered further forward. Hairline at top of forehead could go slightly higher too. Eyebrows appear lower too but that may partially be due to the facial expression pulling on them.

Taking a contour drawing created from the 3D render and then scaling it so it matches the distance between eyes and chin . . .

 

[Nap]

Absolutely fascinating to see the comments ......really interesting to see the way this has evolved

Cheers to all

Nap

 

[pokrad]

I should have mentioned I did make the iris a bit smaller too.

There are other details that could be pointed out, but are more about making her look like Joy and wont necessarily make her more feminine The angle/tilted view should not be showing the inside of her nostrils. The bottom of the ears are higher and mouth should be closer to the nose. Face width looks near spot on by the cheeks but forehead shape is different as the hairline around the temples has been rendered further forward. Hairline at top of forehead could go slightly higher too. Eyebrows appear lower too but that may partially be due to the facial expression pulling on them.

Taking a contour drawing created from the 3D render and then scaling it so it matches the distance between eyes and chin . . .

You are right about nostrils, cause I forgot when the smile is wide and the cheeks go up, so are the nostrils The hairline is sketchy too.
The rest could be the focal length, but I am not sure, I will try to find the focal length of the photo and match it with the render...
Thanks for the comments

 

[pokrad]

Here, I think I got the focal length right.
To me obvious differences are:
Eyebrows are too high on mine.
Ears are to low on mine
Hairline is still a bit to low on mine (although I already pushed it back)
Neck is too thin on mine

 

[JackG]

So what is the aim going forward, to make the 3D render resemble more the historical pilot or to satisfy those that have their ideal about perfect beauty? The latter may actually be more difficult because as they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

The ancient Greeks had a mathematical ratio for a perfect female face but I find the examples used by comparing famous people is hit and miss.

 

[Rob]

Here, I think I got the focal length right.
To me obvious differences are:
Eyebrows are too high on mine.
Ears are to low on mine
Hairline is still a bit to low on mine (although I already pushed it back)
Neck is too thin on mine

Eyebrows yes,
Ears no, I think if you chose an ear shape with a rounder, shorter lobe you will be right.
Hairline ? Your hair is closer to the face all around.
Neck no, I think that appears so because of bringing the hair forward.

Also you still have a noticeably more pointed chin than the original girl.

As has been asked, what/who are you modelling?
A generic ATA girl you already have, replace her cap and she is a perfect match for your WASP as a uniform study pair. I would happily buy and paint both of those.
To actually model Joy Lofthouse in her flight gear you will have to make changes and address the bust length issue.

 

[Merryweather]

Also don't forget RAF buttons had an obvious eagle & crown crest, they were not plain studs.

Rob, she is ATA not RAF , and I think the buttons should be black bakelite rather than brass
https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/button-royal-ata/nasm_A19640676131

Thanks for sharing ,Pokrad, I have been putting off going digital for a long time and this has been very instructive
N

 

[pokrad]

I think I will do just a "generic" bust, cause I could not do real likeness of a potato
Will finish the uniform and hair, and later do the version with the mask.
But as face is concerned, I think this is more or less it

 

[Rob]

Rob, she is ATA not RAF , and I think the buttons should be black bakelite rather than brass
https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/button-royal-ata/nasm_A19640676131

Good spot. I knew they were bakelite but thought they used the standard black issue like these:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/eEYAAOSwi1ZeVWWV/s-l9999.jpg
Didn't realise the ATA had their own version of the crest. How typically British.

 

[theBaron]

I think her face was just fine. The comments about flaws reminded me of Mom saying, "You're too picky. You'll never find a girl if you stay so picky!"

Prost!
Brad