Counterfeit figures

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No matter how, there are always modellers that are willing to buy recast figures because of the pricing and that is why the recasters are doing good business and popping up everywhere. Education is the only way to show these modellers that a recast figure is alway a recast figure that will never match the quality of the original.
 
What you say is a contradiction because if the original casting is bad from a manufacturer, the counterfeit copy should be even worse. An interesting input!!


Even if copy is worse (and why not better with somes very bad original kit) the value is true and everyone is free.
And I'm not agree with you about return rate. My experience, new models of Andrea China are very low quality as all knight models metal. it's not a secret between professionals trader : the alloy as the casting :confused:.

Your work is appreciated, but why defend the interests of such company? to each his job.

I wish you good luck.(y)
 
Fascinating thread!

OK I'm gonna play devil's advocate here!

I totally agree that making copies of figures currently avaliable from the manufacture is totally wrong and is illegally stealing the creative copyright.

But I also feel that some manufactures are putting themselves above the firing line, and are opening themselves up to re-casters.

As Tony said, when he was young kid he could buy a Tamiya set of figures for a few bucks once a week. Now we are all middle aged men with money to burn (well you lot are ....not me!) We must bring in new blood, If you don't bring in the tadpoles then this hobby is dead!

Figures now cost a lot of serious cash! And their production runs are not very long. (Stu and Stormtroopers take note, if you make a production run finite, and your figures become rarer and more valuable, what do you think will happen?)

We have all seen the rarest of figures on Ebay command incredible prices, only for people to stash them away for their 'value'! What a stupid scenario!

Bringing in some kind of 'certificate of authenticity' is really a bit counter productive. This too will add to their 'value', and people won't paint the buggers! Certificates of authenticity always smacked of 'Star Trek' limited edition ceramic plates, and we all know what they're worth now!!!! (F-all you sad gits!)

Pegaso....LIMITED EDITION EUROMILITAIRE....100 PIECES ONLY.....very expensive!
NumNUTS....what do you think is going to happen?

You create a work of art that is beyond the financial or geographical means of 95% of the modelling community...

There'll be a real buzz around the Pegaso stall at Euro (But I won't be one of them), and I suggest you get ready for the recasters.....you bring it upon yourselves!

As I said...devil's advocate and all that...

Cheers,
Jon.
 
Pegaso....LIMITED EDITION EUROMILITAIRE....100 PIECES ONLY.....very expensive!
NumNUTS....what do you think is going to happen?

You create a work of art that is beyond the financial or geographical means of 95% of the modelling community...

There'll be a real buzz around the Pegaso stall at Euro (But I won't be one of them),
and I suggest you get ready for the recasters.....you bring it upon yourselves!

Gentlemen,

Counterfeit industry should not be in any position to dictate anything in the legit market.
It's like letting the terrorists win by living in fear, not traveling and changing our life style.
Ain't gonna happen.

Andrea or whoever produces figures at whatever the MSRP simply BECAUSE THEY CAN.
They are free to do so. There shouldn't be anything anyone can do except not buying them.
If anyone thinks these figures are of poor quality for the price, don't buy it.
Poor quality/high price doesn't justify anyone to make, sell, and buy counterfeits. (duh, really? yes, really)

Guys, let's stop beating around the bush. It's not the quality, MSRP, availability because you have
the choice of simply not buying it. No matter what, there will be makers, sellers and "fully informed"
buyers of counterfeit figures.

Some people are just born that way. There, I said it!
 
Gentlemen,

Counterfeit industry should not be in any position to dictate anything in the legit market.

yes counterfeiting is wrong. understand why is counterfeiting is to fight against. this is a smart and effective approach. each manufacturer will have to look in the mirror: their quality, adjust supply to demand, adjust prices to the fair value of a piece ....and modelers to choose more seriously manufacturers.

the discussion is closed for me.
 
the discussion is closed for me.
Not so fast, my friend. ;)

each manufacturer will have to look in the mirror:
their quality, adjust supply to demand, adjust prices to the fair value of a piece
Agreed!
"adjust supply to demand" is the right way to go.
"adjust prices to the fair value of a piece"? I don't think so. This is a business.
If they think there is a demand for it, they will charge that much more. And they should.

....and modelers to choose more seriously manufacturers.
You don't think Andrea was "serious" to come up with their MSRPs???
They were serious. It's just that you don't agree with it.
 
...... to start I'll create a forum that will be exclusive to exposing piracy to include the following:


  • Lists of known re-casters
  • Members can post spotted re-casters from sources like eBay
  • Manufacturers can post images of pieces to validate authenticity
  • Manufacturers can talk with other manufactures / traders
  • Members can describe how to spot fakes

This piracy forum would require the input of traders, manufacturers and members to be full realized.

Does everyone feel comfortable with this proposal ?

I think after all that's been considered here this will be the best action to begin with, although I have one reservation regarding the Members posting the names of sellers they believe to be re-casters.
I reckon this part could be abused and used by some disgruntled or simply ignorant customers who wish to complain or discredit certain retailers they have an argument with.
But I definately believe the figure modelling industry would benefit from a forum of this kind and surely manufacturers would appreciate the assistance a forum of this nature could provide as long as it was fairly and judiciously moderated to avoid the abuses I mentioned.
Clearly it seems to be the way to start at least, with an emphasis on education on, the identification of, and inferiority of, the re-casts.
Any changes to the forum can be made as the need arises.
I think it's the way to go, when the opportunity of an international effort through these fora exists then surely it's better than doing nothing at all.
Cheers.
 
I have to agree that this plan is better than doing nothing, but I also believe that many purchasers of counterfeit kits are well aware of what they are buying. One EBay counterfeiter quoted here as much as stated that his figures are rip offs. Still if such a forum helps only a few uninformed folk, then it has to be a Good Thing.
 
but I also believe that many purchasers of counterfeit kits are well aware of what they are buying.

Phil has hit the nail clean on the head with that comment. I am sure on the whole figure painters are a reasonably intelligent bunch and can tell for themselves who are legit and who are not.

Whatever measures are taken someone will always be there to buy knock-off products in the misguided hope of bagging a bargain be it model figures, DVD's or football shirts. Sad I know, but true.

Roger.
 
Phil has hit the nail clean on the head with that comment. I am sure on the whole figure painters are a reasonably intelligent bunch and can tell for themselves who are legit and who are not.

Whatever measures are taken someone will always be there to buy knock-off products in the misguided hope of bagging a bargain be it model figures, DVD's or football shirts. Sad I know, but true.

Roger.


Roger you are 100% right. But unlike dvd or clothing, I don't understand why spend the time painting a fake that doesn't include the time spend on fixing the bad casting.
 
Felix, I agree with what you say but how many people have watched blurry dvd's with people walking in front of the cinema screen rather than spending an extra few £$€ on the legit version.
The problem will always exist and anyone buying re-casts deserve what they get. No one with an ounce of common sense will be ripped off in this way if they buy from reputable dealers/manufacturers.

Roger.
 
Guys,

As I agree that the most of us know enough to smell something is funky
when we see counterfeit figures, many beginners of resin/metal figures
can be fooled into buying one easily. For an instance, I saw a counterfeit
Hornet figure being sold in a different packaging with different company name
at Euromilitaire a few years ago. If you are not familiar with Hornet figures,
you would be fooled. But eventually every modeler who was fooled the
first time realizes what had happened.

Now at this point, one either gets disgusted and decides not to be fooled again
or feels like he beat the system and continues his walk of shame.

Instead of posting the info of counterfeit sellers, we should post a list of
legit reliable dealers with great customer service.
 
Instead of posting the info of counterfeit sellers, we should post a list of
legit reliable dealers with great customer service.

We've agreed that publicly posting counterfeiters is bad practice and will refrain from doing so.

I've outlined a list of arguments against (several posts back) about a 'good guy' list, importantly avoiding a favoritism about one vendor over another.
 
We've agreed that publicly posting counterfeiters is bad practice and will refrain from doing so.

I've outlined a list of arguments against (several posts back) about a 'good guy' list, importantly avoiding a favoritism about one vendor over another.

I'm just saying... gosh... ;)
 
Has anyone ever contacted a manufacturer, when he's discovered someone selling copies, so the manufacturer could follow up?

Prost!
Brad
 
HI Brad,

Yes, I contact a manufacturer recently when I saw their items being sold by a recaster, imagine their chagrin when they found that they had actually sold the 2 pieces to the guy not knowing what he would do with them! That's the problem really how do you know? One very large US Retailer regularly sells his stock to one of the biggest recasters-don't kid me that he doesn't know what the guy does with them, and why shouldn't he sell them, if he doesn't someone else will!
The company involved in the first instance y are currently logging the situation with Ebay and will be actively discussing the whole scenario with other manufacturers at Euro next weekend.
My own personal view is that this will continue regardless, with the best will in the world Ebay cannot police it and the hobby is too small to be of interest to the authorities. (It also happens in the antique business with which I was involved for 15 years)
I think it is up to individual modellers to decide if they buy "Knowingly" from recasters, in the firm knowledge that they are diminishing the hobby by doing so.
One way the manufacturers could fight back is to limit production runs to a size which guarantees them a profit, after which the recasters can do what they like...I don't know how practical this is and it might limit the scope of sculpting, limiting production to guaranteed winners, Romans, Knights etc,etc, I suspect Pegaso do this anyway! however they are now big enough to carry the losses on less popular subjects.
What ever happens the market will decide, look back through old modelling magazines to see the countless companies who have risen in the hobby and then disappeared, what goes round comes round!
That's my rant for today...now i'm off to my sons wedding in London, have a good weekend everybody.

Keith
 
Counterfeiters

This really makes grim reading for us manufacturers. I have been a vitim of these crooks, it is differcult and time comsuming to take action. You think you have a resolve and up they pop again. I feel the problem will get worse, what with recession and unemployment, and it will be differcult to stop. I cannot add anything to whats been said, ultimately it is down to individuals where to source their purchases. Buying from a bonafide source should ensure quality, aftersales customer service and satisfaction. Maybe manufacturers should combine to form a guild, federation or society to unite our concerns. Looking forward to Euro and will discuss this subject there.

Rob
 
Hi guys, I don't mean to sound like a broken record or a wet blanket, but the only reason people buy from recasters is their desire to get a bargain. Their desire to get a bargain trumps their desire to play by the rules.

The only reason people recast figures and sell them on Ebay is to make money. They are not doing it to be charitable, they are doing it for profit. They're meeting a need in the market for cheaper figures, and they are doing so by stealing.

In a word, it's pure greed.

As our hobby has matured over the past decades it has grown to become a multi-million dollar global industry. As the industry has grown, the price (and quality) of kits has risen exponentially and we modellers have benefited, but we have also had to bare the increased prices.

It's not a cheap hobby anymore, and when times are tough, the first thing you tend to sacrifice are the expensive little luxuries and non-essential pleasures and indulgences. That's why I'm increasingly looking at sculpting my own figures!!

We all agree that we can't stop the practice of recasting and it's virtually impossible to police the internet, so rather than shake our fists impotently in the air at them, we must find a smart way to remove the financial incentive and starve them of their profits.

I appreciate that manufacturers rely on selling figure kits for their livelihood, but they must accept some of the responsibility for the high prices modellers have to pay for figure kits. It is these high prices that have attracted these parasitic recasters to the industry in the first place.

Recasters wouldn't bother recasting a kit to make $1 profit, but if they can sell a recast kit and make $40 profit, (and that price is half the recommended retail price that you and I would pay) the recasters will always be able to sell their cheap knock-off goods and they will always make money doing so.

The issue is how manufacturers can reduce their costs of production in order to maintain their profit margins, while selling their products at substantially lower prices? This is, IMHO, the key to defeating the recasters. Lowering the cost of production allows manufacturers to maintain their proft margins while reducing prices. It's simple market economics.

If retail prices and production costs are reduced, the recasters lose their price advantage, and the quality of the legitimate products starts to outweigh the perceived value of the "bargain" knock-off. Take the profits out of recasting, and the recasters will eventually go somewhere else.

In my view reducing kit prices and making our hobby more affordable would also attract many more younger modellers to figure modelling and therefore make the industry more sustainable over the long run.

The figure modelling industry started out very much as a small cottage industry dominated by artisans, friends and hobbyists, and still appears to be run along those lines. But it is now an expensive hobby dominated by men in their 40's, 50's and 60's who grew up on cheap plastic kits in the 1960's and 70's, and can now afford premium quality products at premium prices. These premium prices are what's attracting the recasters.

The figure industry must recognise that it is now a global industry with combined net turnover in the tens of millions of dollars, and that the old gentlemanly ways of doing business are not capable of protecting the industry from pirates.

So long as there are good profits to be made from stealing artistic works and recasting them, the practice will continue and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it.

Manufacturers have to fight back by reducing costs and pricing their products so that the incentive to recast them is not worth the time and effort to do so.

I hope my argument makes some sense, and I welcome any responses from manufacturers about the issues I've raised. I'm sure none of you want to reduce your own profits, but I would like to hear if you think prices can be reduced as a response to recasters.
 
What kind of MSRP's are we talking here?

What is constituting too expensive these days? $30 ? $50 ?

$50 is nothing to youngsters today...

The value of $5 to me as a kid in the 70's is $50 to today's kids/teens.

I'm not entirely convinced that the cost of figures are that dramatic.

Is that the motivation for a consumer to go to black market figures?
I can't say for certain, if so, black market consumers and recasters are equally egregious scum, and certainly deserve the crap quality of a recast to save a buck or two.
 
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