Digital Sculpted Figures.

[Colin_Fraser]

From my perspective, I see digital sculpting as a bit of a threat. There I said it. I don' t know a lot about the topic but it seems to me that this is a tool that may take less time and talent to master than traditional sculpting, particularly if one may someday have access to manikins and pre-sculpted insignia, weapons, clothing done by others. I have spent 30 years trying to get adequate at sculpting and along comes a tool that allows one to produce good sculpts without paying those dues (IMO). I recognize that this may a god send to those not wanting to learn the traditional way but you can probably understand me being a little miffed. A hobby analogy is spending years and oodles of cash to collect to collect all the original Rousselot plates only to have them issued in handy book form for a fraction. That really pissed me off

Now you may tell me that just as much talent is required to produce a decent sculpt with software. That may be the case now but it won't always be so. And it looks to be far speedier. Sadly, if one can order any figure in any pose in any scale, perhaps even pre-coloured, we traditional sculptors might as well go home now. I know, it sounds like I see this as all negative and that is not really the case. But I have some fears for the future.

Colin

 

[Gra30]

I know what you mean Colin, although I have promised myself to be a bit more open minded this year.
I see exactly what you mean, to me until the talent we have now become very old men the hand sculpted will remain.
This new tool may offer a wide spectrum and potential and some cheaper kits although I think the market and costs will still dictate the price.
On the other side, if the piece is nice enough it will still sell and I think everyone will see the price of hand sculpted rise considerably and possibly released in much smaller quantities per unit, exclusives so to speak. New technology will have then have had an adverse affect for the customer.
We shouldn't forget that when buying a piece it is not just the means by which it was made but also the idea, composition and execution. If that is good enough the demand will be there and it will sell irrelevant of how the master was made.
A handmade piece of furniture still has demand and the price reflects compared to the average flat pack.

 

[zodiac]

There is not a great difference in time taken to produce something either 3d or trad it's just a slightly different mindset and approach. Again it depends on who's doing the sculpting. I don't see how it will lead to cheaper kits. Just because Carlos Andrea released the Roussellot plates in a willy nilly book form hasn't had any impact on the price of original plates. People still want the originals and will fifty years hence, the book? hmmm.... I knew someone who was one of the best airbrush artists and hand lettering artists I've ever seen. Along came Adobe and all those years learning could have gone in the trash but instead he learned quickly and his knowledge coupled with technology improved his service tenfold. It's about being open and interested. Fear is the great inhibitor with anything new. The amazing thing is this debate of digital and traditional will have very little impact in reality on our hobby for some time to come and then probably manufacturers will be using it much more than customers. The hobby is not big enough for it to have much affect at least not at the moment, also the younger demographic favors the fantasy side of figure modeling and hence why it probably will be that hobby that benefits in the future more from digital sculpting.

 

[Ferris]

I find it such a pity that the discussion on 3D printing is often so polarised. Traditional sculptors and digital guys generally come from very different backgrounds. Each has their values, and lacks complete knowledge and experience with the other side. It makes spicy discussions, but not very objective or positive ones. It's refreshing to read input from guys that know both sides (thanks zodiac).

What would really make a difference, is for a 'few good men' to bridge the gap. I would love to see the likes of Carl Reid, Mike Good, etc to get to grips with digital sculpting. Their talent with anatomy and easthetics is difficult to learn, but the digital skill can be obtained.
3D sculpting and printing has some game-changing aspects, as was pointed out above. I'm sure Carl, Mike and other heroes could bring new and interesting things to the hobby, and commercial opportunities to themselves. Please don't resist, embrace.

Cheers,
Adrian

 

[Blue Thunder]

You guys are getting to the point! Novelties create praise in some and antagonism in others: So things get polarized.


I just would like to pick my own sentence "plot 100 copies - done": This is the true game changer that will become most probably a forth industrial revolution in the upcoming 10 to 15 years. I am not going to describe here what is economically involved, but traditional plastic industry require a heavy initial investment and subsequent amortization. These amortizations are critical in short living products such as smartphones where (unlike kits) all investment must be capitalized in months.

The barriers of 3d printing are being brake at a speed considerably faster, than let's say digital photography since the apearence of the Sony 3.5'' Digital Mavica. And cost efficiency is now ahead industry in just two to three years. And this will really change the world as we know it, specially because a product printed one time and a product printed 1000000 times will have the same fabrication cost. Obviously creativity costs will be diluted in the last sample, but plant costs will come ridiculously similar.

There are still things to do: Plastic industry obviously fear and flak 3d print, specially press and die manufacturers but raw polymers as well. You still can't print several textures and brightness as you do in plastic, and some mechanical properties still need to improve. But all these are being broke.


I don't want to go through exhaustion here, but for you all small companies, realize that thanks to 3d print you can become soon more cost efficient than the main injection molded companies: This action "Plot 100 copies of Germans, plot 100 copies of British, plot 1oo copies of Americans" will be considerably cheaper than the development of tooling to inject many thousands of unpredictable sales of the very same Germans, British and Americans.

(and if you cast, the mess is over too! Did I also mentioned that 3d print resolution is already crushing dimensional stability of plastics?)


Don't fear digital! Embrace technology and be on the edge of the wave that will allow you to compete hand in hand with the big names: The democratization of manufacturing is the key core of 3d print: A creator will no longer need a heavy investment to materialize his products! This is revolutionary and will brake many Fordist and Taylorist logics that begun in the early XX century.


Just look around and see how many photo developers closed doors thanks to digital! But we all remember what they were saying about digi pictures ...

 

[Colin_Fraser]

Maybe the analogy is digital vs vinyl LPs. Some still like vinyl for its greater character. Room for both?

Colin

 

[Gra30]

That is an interesting analogy blue thunder and I understand all you are saying.
From the small company point of view it is not the lack of being able to produce 100 copies at break neck speed as many times there is no point.
The quantities that a figure sells in today's market is usually far less so MASS production via 3d is not really a viable investment for any small cottage company. The customer decides this by if they like the piece or not and buys it, the speed of production has no relevance, from my experience anyway.

Flooding the market also without giving time for people to even paint the piece may bring the cash in short time but is the worse thing for a manufacturer to do. The grey army grows bigger, the customer stops buying and we all see figures being sold on in the market section cheaper than from the manufacturer.

I admit I do not know how long it takes to print a quality piece or the machines cost but I suspect top of the range machines do and will probably remain the same as an injection moulding facility, that is a guess I admit.
For large companies, possibly and I see your point like master box for example.
This then brings down the only dilemma to a small manufacturer the choice of 3d or hand sculpted for the master and the pros and cons have been discussed above.
If decided 3d sculpt at small company level the kit will still be produced from the digital master by the same means, at the numbers we deal with it provides the best results and the most reasonable costing which in turn is passed to the customer and I can't really see that changing.
As said if selling hundreds then I can see your point of view of possible cost reduction, but when we are talking small double figure numbers in many cases, the return must be made within those figures.

Master costs I imagine will remain the same as no quality sculptor is going to sell their work cheap, in most cases once sculpted the piece is in the hands of the manufacturer, the sculptor has finished with the piece once he receives his just payment for his work and they move on to the next piece. Even if a piece can be sculpted quicker, and we utilise parts today that are generic, the sculptor still has his name on the piece and that quality is encompassed in the master costs. You only need look at the price of some digital photography prints from well known artists, considerably quicker than a painting to take but composition, execution by that artist demand high prices.

I agree photo developers closed due to the ability to mass produce at home yes, but the image (photo) is provided by the customer. To compare, customers would need to own the digital image, which costs either as a master or a one off software which I find extremely unlikely from the smaller manufacturers, the other option if course is to sculpt it yourself. Even if 50% of modellers did own the ability to print at home figures would still be produced as kits in order to capture those without the facilities, I don't think it will be regular tool in the modellers/household arsenal and certainly not by everyone. There is also the modeller who only dabbles who needs to be catered for and those who will think is it worth it when I can buy the kit ready made.

I am only speaking from manufacturing as I see it and in no way am I trying to decry or favour either method of sculpting.

 

[Blue Thunder]

That is a good example Colin: The current ratio is, about 2% LP's.

Long plays are great gifts in some segments and even a great decorating piece. You can't hang a Mp4 file in your living room . Same thought can be applied to a master sculpt.


There will always be casters and traditional sculptors The main question, for those who live of this (or pay their bills out of what they earn in modelling), is if they want to be on the 2% side or on the 98% side.


The parallel examples are so many to give! I remember about 15 years ago DOS programmers flaking object oriented programming and they lost their jobs ... just about five years ago I had many friends flaking Android ... now some are jobless, and others, less stubborn, are learning how to develop Android App's but on the back of the train ... and some 22 years old guys are running this very same train


Nevertheless, there are still guys out there that only want to buy DOS stuff .... room to everyone in this world. The 2% and the 98%

 

[Borek]

But comparison of CD / LP can not be used for figures. Principle of diversity LP and CD is quite different. For figures will always end product virtually identical, namely model designed for painting. Digitally Although you can create a finer, more accurate details, but the human eye and paintbrush have their limits, so the advantages of 3D production will be only at the level of production, but not in the final product (at least with respect to the final destination, ie painting the figure). This is perhaps the time when the 3D printing so cheap and fast that with its help you can print directly finished products. And that's when the pace of development of 3D printing still far enough.


Modeling of a 3D model can be faster with the help of prefabricated parts (already finished human bodies, parts of equipment and weapons used from pre-built object bank). In fact, it is still hand made ​​faster than 3D modeling. Myself I have no problem with any transition to 3D, even though i will always prefer the real material. But I recognize that evolution simply go towards 3D, it is irreversible, but in my
opinion the ratio of hand made ​​versus 3D sculpts will not be nowhere near as dramatic as in CD vs. LP .
Sorry for bad Eng.

Chers Borek

 

[offo]

I totally agree with Carl. Whether someone is an artist or craftsman, not decide what tool to use. The artist is a man from whose talent, diligence and creativity will come work with added value. Ultimately, it does not matter whether the 3DS or hand made​​. But ... As well as quality hand made ​​figurine sculpting, you must choose the best practices to quality casting and production, the same must be for 3D. If you want to print high-quality 3D, to be high quality 3D printer. I saw the prints with layers of tens of microns with extremely fine detail, and I saw the appalling prints without merit.
I personally would like to try the 3DS sometimes, but I always stay faithful tactilely oriented work with the real material. To do not replace the magic.
Sorry for bad Eng. Perhaps it was at least a little understandable.Cheers Borek

I agree with Carl. With Borek we were already on the topic discussed.
My point is that today, but the sculptors such a feeling in your hands even wins. But in the future it will be commercially-rolling high-quality digital products. And we will not lie. Carl a very sinews of your art but I guess it overwhelm us. See the photo! Do you have someone at home old optical camera?
In times when digital came with 2 Mega power all told that the normal camera nevirovná. Let us say today.
It's a nightmare for me. But the future belongs to 3D technology.
Carl or Moz and another if you will acquire socharinu in 3D will be getting their manuscript and also move somewhere else.
Artist breathes the soul of his work.
That said gentlemen very well can. And I believe that will be a not problem for them the future.
I hope the translator translated correctly.

 

[offo]

From my perspective, I see digital sculpting as a bit of a threat. There I said it. I don' t know a lot about the topic but it seems to me that this is a tool that may take less time and talent to master than traditional sculpting, particularly if one may someday have access to manikins and pre-sculpted insignia, weapons, clothing done by others. I have spent 30 years trying to get adequate at sculpting and along comes a tool that allows one to produce good sculpts without paying those dues (IMO). I recognize that this may a god send to those not wanting to learn the traditional way but you can probably understand me being a little miffed. A hobby analogy is spending years and oodles of cash to collect to collect all the original Rousselot plates only to have them issued in handy book form for a fraction. That really pissed me off

Now you may tell me that just as much talent is required to produce a decent sculpt with software. That may be the case now but it won't always be so. And it looks to be far speedier. Sadly, if one can order any figure in any pose in any scale, perhaps even pre-coloured, we traditional sculptors might as well go home now. I know, it sounds like I see this as all negative and that is not really the case. But I have some fears for the future.

Colin

I agree with you and I am angry but unfortunately the world is rushing somewhere completely different than we would like. My father is a historic artifacts amassed hill. Eg bounty of postcards depicting the history of a particular region. On with the show when the possibilities of the internet and that almost everything he did there for a long time and someone is not treated. It kills him. He does not understand and is frustrated. Globalization and digital powerhouses progress and us. I got it from him afraid.
Statues I will continue to do so but it will not sell because no one makes a series of 3D technol price at which purchase or material!
But this is the future

 

[Blue Thunder]

Graham, very interesting points!

Please allow me to highlight this:

I admit I do not know how long it takes to print a quality piece or the machines cost but I suspect top of the range machines do and will probably remain the same as an injection moulding facility, that is a guess I admit.
For large companies, possibly and I see your point like master box for example.

You see, 3d print will allow any of you guys to have the dimension you wish to have! Even if you don't have the machine


A fine machine, industry aimed, costed in 2011 about 150.000$, in 2012 90.000$ and in 2013 50.000$. This is cheaper already than a high end multi tool injection molded press.


The tweak is that the consumable is yet high priced compared to PE, PS, PTFE and alike. But in the next two years this will finally be surpassed. By these times the machines will cost about the same, but their output will be gargantuan facing current days.



These machines are out of your reach and they are also out of the reach of many IM companies, not alone in modelling, that just subcontract plants that have only high end presses. It will be a market of the future, just like photocopies. The principal is the same: "copy your stuff here".

But how these machines can touch cottage modelling? The answer has one name. It is "tree of products" or "umbrella of products"


Can you please see this link:


http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/newkitnews/live_resin.html


All these are 3d generated aftermarket items. However they are all artisan cast representing an immense amount of waste in time and in opportunity to deliver to the customer all these minute weapons.

Enter 3d print -> In about two years all these products will be printed in about 10 minutes. No masters, no molds, no silicone, no waste, no pouring ... nothing. No mess at all organizing all the masters to cast all these goodies.


What changes the world for good, is that you can manage a range of 100, 1000, or even 10000 completely different products with zero stocks, zero masters and zero molds and you just plot the quantities you wish: You won't have to spent evenings casting, you won't need to create stocks of even 5 products, you won't need to remake rubber molds, you won't need to fear poor castings or air bubbles ...literally nothing of nothing. Just plot and plot and plot completely free without other concerns.


What will be needed in a future nearby is top quality digital sculpt: The master guys! The brains of the business! Nowadays, for me, there are many people flaking digital sculpting because there is too much digital garbage created by enthusiasts that don't have no sculpting graduation and don't know even what art is. For them things look cool, for me things look atrocious. This gap must be filled: I personally think it is easier to make a top sculptor learning Maya (or Solid Works for the weaponry), rather than getting a digi guy with a block of marble, or a blob of clay in front of his eyes expecting him to bring out a human figure.


Well, and after these upcoming next years there will become another revolution for the next decade: Home laser printing. Now you can have already a layer by layer printer at home at the cost of 1000$ but "z" advances are awkward. Even the vibration movements of the plotting head interferes with precision.

Laser binary printing (where the laser hits, things turn solid, where the laser doesn't hit nothing occurs) will completely change the world: Creativity will become the forehead of leading companies, not their money, not their size. Anyone, in this beautiful earth, will be able to output and sell a winning design. But this will be reserved for the next generation - we need to open the room for them now in the industrial printing

 

[Borek]

I got it from him afraid.
Statues I will continue to do so but it will not sell because no one makes a series of 3D technol price at which purchase or material!
But this is the future

In my opinion, distant future, many more years. The technology still does not provide such savings to significantly cheaper production, and the pace at which it develops, it is still long. Six years ago, 3D printing tech. producers claimed that in three years, the 3D printer in every office. And we're not there at all. But surely it will come, no question it is.

 

[carl reid]

Its all very impressive stuff! But who makes the figures? The organic part?
Probably a traditional sculptor.

Carl

 

[Borek]

Graham, very interesting points!

Please allow me to highlight this:




You see, 3d print will allow any of you guys to have the dimension you wish to have! Even if you don't have the machine


A fine machine, industry aimed, costed in 2011 about 150.000$, in 2012 90.000$ and in 2013 50.000$. This is cheaper already than a high end multi tool injection molded press.


The tweak is that the consumable is yet high priced compared to PE, PS, PTFE and alike. But in the next two years this will finally be surpassed. By these times the machines will cost about the same, but their output will be gargantuan facing current days.



These machines are out of your reach and they are also out of the reach of many IM companies, not alone in modelling, that just subcontract plants that have only high end presses. It will be a market of the future, just like photocopies. The principal is the same: "copy your stuff here".

But how these machines can touch cottage modelling? The answer one name. It is "tree of products" or "umbrella of products"


Can you please see this link:


http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/newkitnews/live_resin.html


All these are 3d generated aftermarket items. However they are all artisan cast representing an immense amount of waste in time and in opportunity to deliver to the customer all these minute weapons.

Enter 3d print -> In about two years all these products will be printed in about 10 minutes. No masters, no molds, no silicone, no waste, no pouring ... nothing. No mess at all organizing all the masters to cast all these goodies.


What changes the world for good, is that you can manage a range of 100, 1000, or even 10000 completely products with zero stocks and in the quantities you wish: You won't have to spent evenings casting, you won't need to create stocks of even 5 products, you won't need to remake rubber molds, you won't need to fear poor castings or air bubbles ...literally nothing of nothing. Just plot and plot and plot completely free without other concerns.


What will be needed in a future nearby is top quality digital sculpt: The master guys! The brains of the business! Nowadays, for me, there are many people flaking digital sculpting because there is too much digital garbage created by enthusiasts that don't have no sculpting graduation and don't know even what art is. For them things look cool, for me things look atrocious. This gap must be filled: I personally think it is easier to make a top sculptor learning Maya (or Solid Works for the weaponry), rather than getting a digi guy with a block of marble, or a blob of clay in front of his eyes expecting him to bring out a human figure.


Well, and after these upcoming next years there will become another revolution for the next decade: Home laser printing. Now you can have already a layer by layer printer at home at the cost of 1000$ but "z" advances are awkward. Even the vibration movements of the plotting head interferes with precision.

Laser binary printing (where the laser hits, things turn solid, where the laser doesn't hit nothing occurs) will completely change the world: Creativity will become the forehead of leading companies, not their money, not their size. Anyone, in this beautiful earth, will be able to output and sell a winning design. But this will be reserved for the next generation - we need to open the room for them now in the industrial printing

I do not think that in two years it will be possible to print so quickly, but globally yes, this direction it was going. But you do not take into account the possibility of hand made sculpting work that is scanned and a digital copy then utilized for production. Already, some companies follows produced a negatives of two-piece mold in the digital environment (instead of the pressure vulcanization for spin-casting), but the base is hand made ​​sculpt. And that possibility is also when on the 3D printers will be able to print the final products. Scanning using a special scanner is a matter of minutes.
In order to understand, I'm far from defending one technology against another, I believe that both can and will long coexist side by side in proportion definitely more balanced than 2/98%

 

[Diegoff]

Graham, very interesting points!

What will be needed in a future nearby is top quality digital sculpt: The master guys! The brains of the business! Nowadays, for me, there are many people flaking digital sculpting because there is too much digital garbage created by enthusiasts that don't have no sculpting graduation and don't know even what art is. For them things look cool, for me things look atrocious. This gap must be filled: I personally think it is easier to make a top sculptor learning Maya (or Solid Works for the weaponry), rather than getting a digi guy with a block of marble, or a blob of clay in front of his eyes expecting him to bring out a human figure.

Well, Blue Thunder, you have convinced me
Could you recomend me -I'm an ignorant in computer's stuff- some free program to give a try to digital sculpting?

Still I only spend my money in vynil LP's. Got some hundreds CD but no more!

 

[zodiac]

I just don't get this current thread are we talking mass production of figures? that doesn't happen in our hobby? The sculptor sculpts that's it! casting will always get better results than 'plotting'. 3d printing will improve but only in as much as producing a digitally sculpted tactile piece that still needs to be tooled for mold. A pattern. The advantages of digital are it's easier to correct errors amongst others, you can also render digital, rig and animate and illustrate. I think this thread has wandered off into hypothetical discussion about quantities of production rather than producing excellent sculpt work. It's not going to replace sculptors or casting, at least to use a famous quote "not in your lifetime".

 

[Borek]

Well, Blue Thunder, you have convinced me
Could you recomend me -I'm an ignorant in computer's stuff- some free program to give a try to digital sculpting?

Still I only spend my money in vynil LP's. Got some hundreds CD but no more!

http://www.blender.org/

 

[Gra30]

I agree with Borek, no matter how much detail is presented, it all has to go under a layer of paint, maybe it is a quest for nano detail to know it is there and only the painter can judge his/her skill to whether the level of detail is truly needed for the end result

 

[Blue Thunder]

Its all very impressive stuff! But who makes the figures? The organic part?
Probably a traditional sculptor.

Carl

I do not think that in two years it will be possible to print so quickly, but globally yes, this direction it was going. But you do not take into account the possibility of hand made sculpting work that is scanned and a digital copy then utilized for production. Already, some companies follows produced a negatives of two-piece mold in the digital environment (instead of the pressure vulcanization for spin-casting), but the base is hand made ​​sculpt. And that possibility is also when on the 3D printers will be able to print the final products. Scanning using a special scanner is a matter of minutes.
In order to understand, I'm far from defending one technology against another, I believe that both can and will long coexist side by side in proportion definitely more balanced than 2/98%

Borek, Carl, allow me to aggregate your thoughts

Carl, you the creator, will always be first and foremost the most needed person. No doubts at all about this!


Borek, the process you are talking about is based in finite element design. In this process, a natural shape is "comprehended" by a machine who interpolates segments that compose the original curve. This inputs an error: The larger the segments, the bigger the error. The smaller the segments, the smaller the error. Finite elements is also used in, for example, stress calculations such as Autodesk Robot and the principal is the same.

Traditional sculptors may think that they can create a physical master that will become subsequently digitized. The point is that this dematerialization will input noise in the original sculpture. I mean, complex 3d curves of the real part and 3d curves of the digitized model will be different: this is called "noise". The software program picks points and unite points through segments: The more points it picks, lesser will be the differences: But they will always exist.


3d native sculpting eradicates these differences. With some big advantages! The major one is this "cntr+z". Others are also very appealing, such as the possibility to generate simultaneously 30mm and 54mm ranges.


But ... all in all even in the XXV century we will have sculptors, portraitists, drawers ... no matter in the time we live hand crafted stuff will always exist.



However, when it comes to businesses, things are a bit different: Money and opportunity really dictates laws of survival. Some will praise, others will learn, and some will joke

... a little bit like they joked about the telephone, the car, the radio, the tv ... even the mobile was flaked intensely ... why would 3d print become universally acclaimed. It won't! Adherents and detractors will always coexist.