Euro's getting near but has it changed?

[Don]

As a few of you members will know I have been rather ill and am now starting to return to PF. Last year I started a post on Euro and the things I didnt like, mostly the judging?
The reason I started it was that I love Euro and the people I meet, and just the whole buzz around the show. I would hate to lose it but last year quite a few people told me they would not be coming back and this worried me.
I tried to ask about this and some people took offence immediately as if it was aimed at them, which it never was, I just wanted a few opinions.
My question thus has to be, have all the problems of last year been sorted? I ask this because despite asking, no one ever got round to answering, from a show staff point of view that is.
Please please dont lets have a repeat of last year, let us or me know that things have changed. Remember the members who travel to the show and spend a lot of money over the weekend, there are other shows (not quite so good I admit) and as for sales, there is always the internet.

Have put on my tin helmet and await incoming.

Don

 

[housecarl]

Hope you have a great weekend Don.
Be sure to post some photos,
Carl.

 

[Don]

I assume you wont be coming this year Carl, thats a great pity as I do enjoy your figures. Once ripped off enough for you was it?
I think there will be plenty of photos but will see what I can do.

Don

 

[housecarl]

I don't think my absence will bar your enjoyment mate.
Long way to go for a bit of a natter.
Have a good one,
Carl.

 

[smudger1960]

Hi Don
I'm glad to hear your feeling much better now,i read your post following last years euro and i felt you raised some very good points,unfortunately i feel you wont be getting any positive feedback from the show staff or officials because in their little world there is no problem with the judging,i'm affraid it will be the usual click of people who have friends of friends that will be taking home the gongs once again,i'm with you on a lot of the judging issues and although i've never judged at euro i've been painting figures for 27 years now and i definately feel i know a well painted figure when i see it,and i was gobsmacked at the amount of superb figures that did'nt even place especially in class 2,and above average figures that did,when i got the full results of medal winners in military modeling euro special a few weeks later i was able to put names to some of the above average figures i spoke about and yes some of them were well known names within the hobby leading to a case of not what you know but who you know!
My biggest gripe about the judging is there are people judging who have never won gold medals and i feel to judge you should have gold as a minimum on your CV.
Before anyone starts attacking me about my views i just want to point out that this is not just my point of view but also the views of many competitors i spoke to last year in the competition room,i have friends who are not even attending the show this year,which is very sad.
I will still continue to attend euro as i do every year and support it but there definately needs to be a re-vamp of the judging system and a more level playing field i feel.

Brian

 

[megroot]

I will visit Euro without competing. As long as I should compete against the Masters and Grand Masters I will learn nothing. You better give the money to the vendors.
I just going to enjoy great painted figures, have some awefull beers, and made some talk's and buy some stuff. There is always something to buy that you cannot buy on the web. And seeing figures you wanna buy is one of the reasons to go. Always buy some bases, but now I found a PF member who made extremely good bases for fair prices.
As far as the competition goes: Nothings gonna changed. I even think the organizers don't listen to the complains about last year. Hope they read the thread and follow the advices that has been given. But I think they don't.
If it is this year the same as last year, that would be my last Euro.
And I hope, surely hope that I can have a talk with Brian Snaddon........

Marc

 

[Helm]

The judging has always been somewhat incestuous at these things as far back as I can recall. The only time I think I've seen a genuine award ( in the none bias sense not implying cheating) is at the old Northern show when there was a public and competitors vote for best in show

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

I will visit Euro without competing. As long as I should compete against the Masters and Grand Masters I will learn nothing. You better give the money to the vendors.
I just going to enjoy great painted figures, have some awefull beers, and made some talk's and buy some stuff. There is always something to buy that you cannot buy on the web. And seeing figures you wanna buy is one of the reasons to go. Always buy some bases, but now I found a PF member who made extremely good bases for fair prices.
As far as the competition goes: Nothings gonna changed. I even think the organizers don't listen to the complains about last year. Hope they read the thread and follow the advices that has been given. But I think they don't.
If it is this year the same as last year, that would be my last Euro.
And I hope, surely hope that I can have a talk with Brian Snaddon........

Marc

Hi Marc

Unfortunately Brian Snaddon is not going this year ,so you will just have to make do with me ,Del ,don and Dave ,
sounds a bit like a pop group of many moons ago

Re the competition I seemed to miss all the fireworks last time don't no where I was "no smart ass remarks Don"
people might think you are serious

Ron

 

[Figure Mad]

Hi Don

I seem to remember the post from last year and i think i replied as best i could to the posts, with what information i had, I too have spoken quite a few people as well as you., I have been on the end of bad judging decisions and have been lucky enough to progress in my painting to getting a gold. But as a judge I have never ever judged a figure by the painter, everyone has a not so well painted figure, there fore it should not be guaranteed a gold just because of who painted it. I for one do not judge in that manner, and do not enjoy being labeled the same as others that may judge in that manner.

But I also understand that efforts have been made, specifics I don't actually know. I do know there are a few new reputable recruits to the judging panel, I also understand there has been a few changes in the running of the show, due to the unfortunate and very sad passing of Charles Davis, but this I hope will have a positive effect.

Dave

Marc, it would a sorry loss for us all for people not to go to Euro, I really enjoy meeting other people there, especially our European cousins, I do plan on being at more of the European shows in the next year or two...

Dave

 

[DEL]

If it's OK I'd like to take the debate away from judging which I think has been well debated following last years show an to think about the future direction of Euro.
Brian and Marc are more than decent painters and we have one pleading for a 'level playing field' and one giving a valid reason why he doesn't show or compete.
I know that many regard Euro as the 'Blue Riband' show but I have to wonder if this is still true when you look at the range of relatively easily reached shows throughout continental europe. Just have a look at the AMSS Antwerp show where they have sections for elite painters with established track records in major competition and other sections for beginners and experienced painters. Another worthy of mention is HvB in Ingolstadt, fantastic venue and great hospitality (great beer too).
Breaking up into ability categories means that for example Masters Level competitors could volunteer to run a Q and A session discussing their entries.
I would make a plea for the organisers to look at what changes are practical and to establish a timeline for change. This could be done by engaging in a consultative process with an invited group representative of ALL levels of modellers and painters paralleling an online consultation using something like 'survey monkey'
Believe me I have nothing but admiration for those who organise events such as this, I have in the past been responsible for coordinating one of Scotlands major sporting events and am well aware of the workload and pressure it brings (that's why I retired at 56) but I do think it's heading towards a bit of a tipping point
I don't think for a second the risk is imminent but as europes economy continues to suffer why would the continental europeans and indeed those of us Brits and Irish who can fly to Brussels, Paris, Munich for less that the train fare south continue to come when they have so many choices within driving distance, just look at what Marc's saying.
I've probably bored you enough already but I'll be at Folkestone as usual, I love my weekend there but if the people I like to 'socialise' with stop attending well.....who knows
My tuppence worth
Cheers
Derek

 

[brian]

I loved going to Euro for many years and although i loved competing this was not the main reason for going but the comradie among the many different nationalities i've had the pleasure to meet,and of course spending my money in topping up my grey army were the main reasons for going,the awards are the icing on the cake.
Brian

 

[Patrick Kamsma]

I have visited Euro for the last two years and will go again this year.
To us its a fun weekend with friends having fun and drink beer in and around Folkstone. The show is what brings us together. The friendship is what drives us.

What I heard about judging for the last two years, are the same stories I hear here in the rest of Europe. So for me that is no reason not to go. If I enter the contest, don't think so. This has nothing to do with judging, but the same reason Marc hs brought up. I'm no master, not even average, painter. So to compete against Cartacci, Ruiz, Maddox, etc, the chances for even a medal are very slim. Not that I'm a golddigger, but some incentive to look if your going up with your paintingskills would be nice.
I always hope a judge looks at a figure because of the paintwork, not the person who painted it. But as long personal preference, as always in judging "sports", there will be room for debate. I have not experienced one show, not even our own Scale Model Challenge, where there was no debate about medals.
It comes with the hobby.

If more and more people not coming to shows because of this reason, some shows will cease to exist. The hobby will be less open to the general public and we have less chances to meet in public. Traders will lose customers because we always tend to buy figures at shows, even if we don't need them. And impulse buys of the general public. They will not pick up this hobby and in the future the hobby will die.

Not realistic? How many europeans (or even overseas) have you seen on shows in Telford or f.i. Figureworld? Not many I guess.
Most of them will go to Euro. But only as long as it exists.
If the English stay away, in the end the europeans will too. There are enough shows on the mainland.

Grtz
Patrick

 

[old grumbler]

Nah, Euro militaire likes to think it is the blue riband event and when it succeeded Northern Militaire it was but lordy have times moved on and now it falls behind many european shows. I never liked it much, the judging always upset far too many people far too regularly, they did away with club stands, the price of everything was sky high and it became a ballache. Folkestone is a crummy run down place now full of marauding gipsies and cutthroats, the pubs are crap and there are only two restaurants and nary a stray cat to be seen. I competed only once and was awarded a Gold but Ken Jones left my name off the awards list so I never actually went up on stage to receive it. When this 'error' was pointed out Ray Lamb in front of several people accused me of 'moving' the 'Gold' marker illegally. If it hadn't been for a fellow club member so disgusted he stayed there and insisted I get the damn thing I would have walked off. I attended a few more Euros mainly to see people and have a laugh but never exhibited there again and never will. Good old days!

 

[Dennis]

What are Don,Del & Davy going to do without their lead singer Brian? I hope this is only a temporary missing year Brian, because I really enjoy the breakfast time disscussions. I hope all is well mate.
Dennis

 

[brian]

Nice of you to ask but it's nothing serious Dennis.Just don't feel up to it this year,but i'm still painting away, especially now that i'm retired.I'll miss your big ugly mug first thing in the morning.That doesn't sound right.I mean at the breakfast table!
Brian

 

[billyturnip]

Nice of you to ask but it's nothing serious Dennis.Just don't feel up to it this year,but i'm still painting away, especially now that i'm retired.I'll miss your big ugly mug first thing in the morning.That doesn't sound right.I mean at the breakfast table!
Brian

 

[DEL]

Absolutely correct Patrick. The matter of judging whilst often debatable is a constant in just about every show or indeed competition where subjectivity might play a part.
Forget the judging debate it won't go away the way forward is to encourage the average and beginner painter to compete with peers.
The social side will take care of itself no problem
Derek

 

[Figure Mad]

Patrick and Derek, I can't agree more, I have always made myself available for comments on figures I have judged, many a time I have given comment to Marc, who has improved in more ways than even he can see, Marc’s painting has come on leaps and bounds, but that is not down to me, that is down to Marc wanting to improve his own work. Encouragement is all I can give to anybody. I am certainly no master of this artistic hobby of ours but I hope to many of the people I have given comment too, that they feel they can come and ask me at any time, when at Euro. Beginner, Average or even Accomplished painters will always learn from someone else, none of us can do everything .... That is why we stay in the hobby for so long, we enjoy the finding out about historical subjects and the painting of models, if we can make them look more realistic along the way all the better for us, we all do things at our own pace.....

Dave

 

[stu]

Don, I firmly believe it will have changed.

The main reason for this is that it was Charles Davis's wish that it would change. I spoke with Charles last year and he was determined to make it the BEST show around. Unfortunately Charles past away earlier this year and to be fair Euro will have lost one of its huge characters. The owners of Euro had tasked him to make it great again , so I would assume the top brass want this also.

I've been to euro for 26 years on both sides of the tables and entered the comp occasionally. For me if you enter the competition then you are up against the best there is,, thats it. I dont see one of the lesser formula one teams moaning they aint won because they up there with the best, they compete and do as best they can.

Last years show imust admit was different,,,, judges bemoaning the judging,,, its usually painters bemoaning the judging. Unfortunately a lot of gas was not backed up with a lot of conviction,,,kinda like stirring the pot but not prepared to eat what you make. I think this will have changed, the organisers where well aware of the previous thread.

Euro is more than a competition, it is only a part of it, esp if you've not gone to enter at all.

The trade this year is bursting and very varied from all over the world and i am certain there will be more goodies there than you can paint in a lifetime, is it not worth going to actually see this and as a bonus go and look and admire some of the best painting the world over whether it be a gold or nothing.

Folkestone has been described as pretty bad,, yep it is but its accessable, cheap and does what it says on the tin all of which adds up to being able to spend more money drinking laughing and buying whatever takes your fancy. The perfect weekend to eat , drink, be merry and laugh till your sides hurt whilst being around so many like minded people,,,,PERFECT.

Stuart

 

[Don]

Thank you gentelmen, nice to know I was not alone in my thoughts.
Have been going to Euro for around 15-16 years and have loved every moment until last year. There have been complaints about Euro over the years but I could live with them but last year as Stu says even the judges were complaining about the judging. This was not just the odd remark but actual bitter complaints about the standard of judging. it was infact bringing judging down to a new low and the good judges did not want to be included in the firefight. I am fortunate enough to know several of the judges well and I know it was upsetting them as their reputation was being brought down.
Several figures I remember even after almost 10 months include a wonderful 120mm sandard bearer whos painter brought it from Korea, it was a delight but got nothing (not just my opinion) it deserved something just for getting to Euro! A mounted roman, again beautiful, got nothing as there was not enough muscle defination. This was a stock figure and the manufacturer had cast a beautiful horse, which was walking by the way, without defined muscle. Now the judge was quite happy to mark this figure down while knowing as much about horses as my a**e knows about snipe shooting! Lots more incidents like this made for a really bad year and one which should not be repeated.
I am in no way running down all judges, in fact most do a wonderful but thankless job year after year but I'm afraid last year let the show down. Perhaps the judges didnt know they can ask for advice from the senior judge or can contradict each other in their little group.
All this being said, I agree with Dave and Stu, its a wonderful show. To meet people you know, and even some you like, the balcony in the afternoon for a beer in the sun with friends. The trade stands where you seem to be delighted to spend more than you want buying figures you can never finish as you have bought to much. Eating in the evening with friends, it doesnt get any better.
That ny friends is why I dont want it to vanish and I.m afraid that is where its heading if it doesnt improve.

Don