GSM Mott, OBE, Welsh Guards

[Ventress]

Is there a price range?

 

[martin tabony]

Great figure of Billy but we all love our tailored peaks on the Forage Cap (officers wear "Service dress caps) It's going to be a job painting the fine black and green lines! Notice the "Taffs" badge goes over the chinstrap.

This year is also the centenary of the Welsh Guards

What ever it was, this young Guardsman wishes he hadn't!!

Martin

 

[MCPWilk]

Notice the "Taffs" badge goes over the chinstrap

I didn't pick this up from my references. A shame because it spoils the line of the chin strap!

Mike

 

[martin tabony]

I'm sure you noticed that the lower leaves of the leek are lined up with the top of the cap band. Because the badge is so long it would be behind the chinstrap. All guards regiments wear the chinstrap so that the bottom welt is showing below it. Not resting on the peak like some line units. Because the peak is "slashed" the cap isn't worn straight, it''s tipped back slightly

 

[MCPWilk]

I have tried to position the cap well above the ears, as shown in your photos. Without wishing to offend any Welsh Guardsmen, I found the cap badge difficult to copy compared with the Grenadiers badge, and there are numerous references available none of which are identical!

Mike

 

[martin tabony]

It's actualy a very fine badge, easily bamaged. I think that's why they took to wearing an embroidered badge in the beret. I'll dig out what I info I have.

 

[martin tabony]

Here's some pictures that show the band is actualy dark green and black but in most lights it looks like a solid colour. You'll also notice that if you look at the older picture (metal initials rather than embroidered shoulder title) wearing the badge over the chinstrap is a recent thing. The changing fashions of how things have been worn over the years would fill a book!

Martin

 

[prhayes68]

And just to show how things are not consistent even across the Foot Guards, the Scots Guards don't wear a chinstrap on the forage cap.

Pete

 

[martin tabony]

The "Jocks" have nevver worn a chinstrap, although there are all kinds of stories about how they lost it! I believe it was simply that when the peaked forage cap was introduced in 1905 it was decided it didn't look good on the diced band. They also don't wear a plume in their bearskins.

Martin

 

[prhayes68]

David Horn, who used to be the Curator of the Guards Museum, told me the Jocks not having the chinstrap was in line with them having no plume on the bearskin.

Pete

 

[martin tabony]

Pre 1905 no guards regiment wore a chin strap, so would that not actual be that the other two did have a chinstrap, in line with having a plume! Or mabe they don't loose their's in a strong wind!
We wore two when mounted because the cap looks better (including S.D.) with a strap above the peak. We tucked the extra one inside when not needed.

Martin

 

[prhayes68]

That's true. Maybe it was just sartorial and didn't look good with the diced band!

Pete

 

[MCPWilk]

The Scots don't where a plume in their bearskin because they are the centre regiment. The Grenadiers take the right of the line, hence plumes on the left, and the Coldstreams hold the left of the line, hence the plumes on the right. The Irish Guards follow the Grenadiers and the Welsh the Coldstreams.

Mike

 

[prhayes68]

Actually Mike it's the other way round, the Irish Guards follow the Coldstream with a plume on the right and the Welsh follow the Grenadiers with a plume on the left. When they parade in "Brigade Order" the order is as follows: Grenadier, Scots, Welsh, Irish, Coldstream.

Pete

 

[martin tabony]

The Coldstream Guards won't parade next to the Grenadiers. It's an argument about seniorty that has gone on since the restoration in 1660 (and now on facebook! ) Although they are numbered as second they claim that they are senior to the Grenadiers because they were serving in England not France. That is why their motto is Nulli Secundus (second to none) and at Waterloo there was the First Foot Guards, the Coldstream Guards and the Third Foot Guards. The Grenadiers say "Yes, but they were serving the King!"
The Life Guards of course are senior to them all !

Martin

p.s Grenadier, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Coldstream. Irish are 1900, Welsh 1915

 

[prhayes68]

I have seen Grenadier "translations" of the Coldstream motto as "Second to One" and "Better than Nothing"!

Pete

 

[martin tabony]

I've heard some others but women and children may be reading!

 

[prhayes68]

"p.s Grenadier, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Coldstream. Irish are 1900, Welsh 1915"

Even though the Welsh are younger they parade before the Irish in Brigade order. That's the way the Massed Bands line up on the Trooping.

 

[martin tabony]

I was usually too busy to notice!

 

[MCPWilk]

Don't know why I got the Irish and Welsh plumes muddled up having just sculpted a Welsh Guards bearskin!!!

Mike