Sculpting for commercial

[m@rp]

Hi Guys,
For those who sculpts models for commercial use:
How do you prepare your model before you provide your manufacturer?
Do you sculpt your figure completely or do you sculpt in separate parts?.
How do you proceed?
Thank you for your help.
Pascal

 

[Dan Morton]

Pascal:

There is a whole section on this subject on Timelines.
http://www.timelinesforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38

All the best,
Dan

 

[Einion]

How do you prepare your model before you provide your manufacturer?
Do you sculpt your figure completely or do you sculpt in separate parts?

Depends on a few factors Pascal: the scale you are working in, the material it will be cast in and who is doing the casting (they may have 'house preferences') are the main ones.

If you are working prospectively - sculpting something and seeing whether someone might be interested in buying it for production - then the best thing to do is probably check other figures of a similar style and scale and follow their example on how the parts break down.

If you are working directly for a manufacturer they can give you specific instructions on what they can and cannot deal with.

There are also materials considerations as you can't make certain kinds of moulds from some materials because of heating during the curing process, for example vulcanised-rubber moulds for high runs of metal figures.

Einion

 

[slaj]

Pascal, I always sculpt my masters in seperate parts. There's no way that some figures ca be cast in one piece. Obviously that depends from the pose.

Stephen Mallia

 

[m@rp]

Dan, Einion, Stephen,
Many thanks for your help.
Have a nice day
Pascal

 

[Masao]

Good question.

As it has been mentioned; it depends on the client.

Every job is different; subjects and types of work also change the requirements.

Some jobs should be separated but often manufacturers are so compartmentalized, they require that a sculptor only sculpt. Example: One job I did for a toy/model company had me sculpt a body for a doll which they wanted to separate themselves. It was an odd specification, but you don't argue with a client about what the client wants.

In my own kits, I have to make all separations to ensure that the integrity of the sculpture is not lost int the molding process.

You may also look ahead to molding, casting, assembly and even usage to make determinations on how to proceed. -Looking ahead gives you advantages in avoiding future problems.

Lots of factors determine requirements of the work including pose and materials...both of the mold and of the casting.

If you are working for an experienced company, they will tell you what you need to do.

If you are working for someone who has no idea about the process, you need to find the most efficient methods for yourself.

Ask the basic questions:

-What am I making?...what exactly does the client want?
-How will it be used?
-What is the best material:
-for casting?
-for molding?
-How much will the creation cost?
-How much is the client willing to invest?
-how easy are the right materials to get?
-Can I even complete this project:
-on time?
-on budget?

There are a lot of other questions that you can answer, but these should get you started.

Hope this helps.

 

[T50]

Given that you are making a figure to be cast in resin,
you need to engineer the figure so that it is separated
in parts in casting friendly way from the beginning.
In this case, you are NOT making a figure, but you are
making a figure "kit".
Some sculptors separate parts after the figure is done
with a thin saw, blade or string. In my opinion, it can only
lead to a poor fits which is disasterous as a kit. It doesn't
really matter how beutiful the figure is if the the parts fit
together poorly.
Making a figure in a way that you can attach and separate
all parts is important in my humble opinion.
Just my 2 yens

TS

 

[Masao]

Given that you are making a figure to be cast in resin,
you need to engineer the figure so that it is separated
in parts in casting friendly way from the beginning.
In this case, you are NOT making a figure, but you are
making a figure "kit".

Personally, I see no distinction. If you have seen metal miniature figures from as early as the 1970's, you will know that figures have been divided into parts...ie 'kits' since that period. A figure is a figure, assembly or not.

'Kitting' a figure is a matter more of production than art. However, a figure sculpture starts out the same whether it is to become a single or multiple casting(kit).

Some sculptors separate parts after the figure is done
with a thin saw, blade or string. In my opinion, it can only
lead to a poor fits which is disasterous as a kit. It doesn't
really matter how beutiful the figure is if the the parts fit
together poorly.
Making a figure in a way that you can attach and separate
all parts is important in my humble opinion.
Just my 2 yens

TS

Some sculptors like to separate as they sculpt rather than near completion. Fine. Whatever works. As I see it, this has the risk of distortion that is not easily seen until final assembly...or until the customer gets it.

Separating near the end of the sculpting process ensures the final fit has minimal variation from the finished sculpture.

Any real professional will check his work in either case.

Most sculptors do not have to worry about aspects such as separations or molding and unless they have delved into making resin kits or worked at a manufacturing facility, and have little understanding of the entire process.

Most separators are simply there to get the molds made and not for artistic purposes.

I have made 1-piece figures and multi-part figures both in resin and metal. Mold considerations are always in mind when I begin a new figure.

Not understanding the full process hurts the final product.

 

[T50]

A figure is a figure, assembly or not.

When you see a box of Tamiya's Tiger tank, do you see a tank model?
or tank kit? A box of figure parts is just a figure kit until you put it
together. That's the way I see it, and that's that.

'Kitting' a figure is a matter more of production
than art. However, a figure sculpture starts out the same whether it is to
become a single or multiple casting(kit).

I disagree. IMHO, there are 2 type of figures: one-off figures and
production figures. A production figure requires a different type of approach
to work and engineering than a "one-off" figure from the planning stage.
Without this, one will definately run into troubles later on. Therefore, they
don't (or shouldn't) start out the same.

Some sculptors like to separate as they sculpt
rather than near completion. Fine. Whatever works. As I see it, this has
the risk of distortion that is not easily seen until final assembly...or until
the customer gets it.

If one engineers parts so that they don't move around, the work process is
about the same as one piece sculpting.

Separating near the end of the sculpting process ensures the final fit has minimal variation from the finished sculpture.

How do you separate bottom of the neck, shoulders, waist, ect
without destroying the details? What ever the tool one uses, it will eat away
as much as its thickness as it cuts through. Also, this method doesn't give
that "click" fits.

Most sculptors do not have to worry about aspects such as separations or molding

That's what bothers me the most. I noticed that some artists are so
wrapped up about showing off the "skills", they end up making parts are
very difficult or impossible to cast. If one is professional commercial
scupltor, he needs to be familiar himself with the production side.
"I'll let them worry about the casting" type of attitude will only fly them
so far. Maybe the toy industry is different...?

TS

 

[Dan Morton]

Commercial Sculpting

Taesung - Ref your comment - "they end up making parts are very difficult or impossible to cast. If one is professional commercial scupltor, he needs to be familiar himself with the production side."

Could you [or someone] give examples of the kinds of details and parts that could be difficult or impossible to cast and why? As you can tell, I'm unfamiliar with the casting process, but I am trying to understand the problem.

All the best,
Dan

 

[John Long]

I gotta agree with just about everything Taesung said regarding master design. This is one aspect of sculpting that I find the most challenging. Getting a tight fit and a kit that uses minimal rubber to reproduce is an extremely useful skill. I've had to rediesign masters a couple of times and it would definitely have been easier to seperate the parts during the process. I understand the mold making process better now than when I did my first figure. This pays off in the end.

 

[T50]

Taesung - Ref your comment - "they end up making parts are very difficult or impossible to cast. If one is professional commercial scupltor, he needs to be familiar himself with the production side."

Hello guys,
My comments are strictly applied to the miniature figure hobby industry
because this is only area I'm familiar with.

Some parts are difficult to cast for instance:
An arm bent at the elbow and also bent at the wrist to different direction
than at the elbow. This is a tricky and difficult to get good results. In this
case, the wrist should have been bent at a more casting friendly angle or
separated at the wrist.

Some parts are just impossible to cast for instance:
A hand with fingers all bent and spread apart (like claws).
Whether the hand itself is attached to the arm or not, it is an
impossible task.

When a sculptor is commissioned to make a production figure,
he should communicate with the caster and work out the details.
It's an efficient way to keep troubles away. You don't have to
understand the whole process. Just ask the caster for certain
guide lines. He will tell you the do's and don'ts according to his
style of casting.
I believe that is a professionalism and being responsible.

TS

 

[Dan Morton]

Many thanks, Taesung!

All the best,
Dan

 

[Einion]

Personally, I see no distinction. If you have seen metal miniature figures from as early as the 1970's, you will know that figures have been divided into parts...ie 'kits' since that period. A figure is a figure, assembly or not.

How that figure was made to be a kit is what we're discussing - sculpted fully & then separated or made to separate from the start - with any attendant issues of fit and appearance/casting success (which can relate to how something is oriented within a mould, esp. with metal casting).

'Kitting' a figure is a matter more of production than art.

Yes, and this is something that a sculptor working in this area has to deal with, unless he's working in a milieu or scale where single-piece masters are all that are required (like chess pieces, the bulk of 28mm single-figure minis, slip-cast porcelain collectors' figures etc.)

Some sculptors like to separate as they sculpt rather than near completion. Fine. Whatever works.

Yeah, but it's how well it work that's at issue, compared to the other way

Separating near the end of the sculpting process ensures the final fit has minimal variation from the finished sculpture.

Sorry, that's not so for the reasons that Taesung goes into. Sure, you can do this and you can get perfect results, but I've dealt with a few things produced that way that didn't fit worth a damn so it's not automatic that this produces the best results.

One can take steps to restore lost thickness, but that's a catchup measure. Working in clay it's a whole different ballgame but we're not really considering that here; for sculpting in our area, where masters are in hard materials, it's better to work the right way from the beginning - better for final fit and better for 'engineering' (assembly, working considerations). And as Taesung says it almost always ensures a better fit at the end of the day, esp. with resin.

Most sculptors do not have to worry about aspects such as separations or molding and unless they have delved into making resin kits or worked at a manufacturing facility, and have little understanding of the entire process.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here - of course sculptors have to worry about separation and moulding, they're the ones making the separations almost all of the time.

Not understanding the full process hurts the final product.

That's pretty much a given, but as I read it you're saying contradictory things here - on the one hand "Most sculptors do not have to worry about aspects such as separations..." but then "Not understanding the full process hurts the final product."???

IMHO, there are 2 type of figures: one-off figures and production figures. A production figure requires a different type of approach to work and engineering than a "one-off" figure from the planning stage.

I agree completely. You can separate something after sculpting if you really have to, but it's a much better idea IMO to sculpt something with the specific intention of it being a kit from the beginning, from a practical standpoint.

How do you separate bottom of the neck, shoulders, waist, ect
without destroying the details? What ever the tool one uses, it will eat away
as much as its thickness as it cuts through.

Exactly. Except to a certain extent in clay, which we aren't concerned with.

Einion

 

[quang]

Modellers don't usually realize that sculpting a one-off and creating a model for for multiple reproduction are two completely different trades.

Creating a model for commercial use is more of a DESIGN process, meaning that everything (moulds, casting, number of parts, ease of assembly,...) has to be planned before the actual sculpting begins.

An experienced designer can do it AT THE SAME TIME as the sculpt progresses but in no way can leave it until the final stages. In a commercial process, a figure that is not easily reproductible is worthless.

Furthermore, there's good design and bad design. A topic too technical (and tedious) to be discussed here. Let's say that good design results in lesser parts, lesser casting time and material, hidden (or in the contrary more accessible) joints and less swearing from the modeller's end.

My two Eurocents

Quang

 

[T50]

In a commercial process, a figure that is not easily reproductible is worthless.

Completely agree!!!

Furthermore, there's good design and bad design. A topic too technical (and tedious) to be discussed here.

Quang,
Lets save it for our next meeting... maybe at WE 2008?

TS

 

[quang]

Lets save it for our next meeting... maybe at WE 2008?

TS

My pleasure, TS.

Q

 

[T50]

Except to a certain extent in clay, which we aren't concerned with.

Einion, do you work with clay a lot???

TS

 

[bonehead]

Words from an old journeyman......

I think Taesung and Quang have been the voices of reason here. And why shouldn't they be? Afterall, they are both professionals who have been there and done that.....

If you want to design model kits for production, you have to start with a working knowledge of casting. This is one of the very first things I learned when doing masters over 20 years ago. You have to know how to make a mold and extract a part from a mold. You have to know what can be molded and what cannot be. If you don't understand these things going in, then you are set up for a long and painful learning curve. That's just the way it is. Learn the process first and you will have fewer painful "lessons" to learn.

Second, if you don't want to make your life long and difficult, you need to learn how to engineer your models so that they fit together and come apart easily. This is best done at the initial planning stage. Just haphazardly sculpting a one piece figure and cutting it apart is asking for trouble. Have you ever purchased a kit that had pieces that didn't fit together well? Chances are, that model was one that was sculpted and cut apart.

Sorry, that is the hard way to do things. Cutting one piece into two and then trying to make a good keyed join between the two parts is laborious and counterproductive. As Taesung pointed out, the simple act of sawing a part in two means that you lose the thickness of the blade (plus a little more). This ensures that the finished piece will already be compromised from the original sculpture. Plus, without some sort of alignment device, the parts will not EVER fit together the same way as the original was sculpted. This business does not pay well enough for me to spend that much time and effort to do something that is much easier and more painless to do with just a little forethought going in.

Duh.

The good news is that it is not difficult to figure out how to engineer "lugs" or pins into your armatures. Do this at the beginning stage and then grease up the adjoining areas with vaseline and form your added parts right over the mounting lugs. This is fool proof. The fit is always perfect because the new parts are literally formed right onto the old ones. No muss, no fuss. And, I don't have to EVER to do the nerve racking job of cutting apart a model that I have spent so much time perfecting. Much less, figuring out how to get the thing back together again so that it actually looks the way I planned it.

So, it pays to know what you are doing. If you want to do it the hard way, that is your choice. But I have done enough of these things over the years to have figured out what works and what doesn't. That is why I consider myself a journeyman.

Keep that saw away from my masters!

Cheers!!

Mike