WIP Sculpting Thread - The Combat of the Thirty, 1351 - 54mm diorama sculpting WIP series - Introduction

[Borek]

Day Five, WIP No. 11

Hi guys

Hi Borek

Very sharp definition ...looking really good

Happy sculpting

Stay safe

Nap

Thanks so much Nap


Now, because one video is worth a thousand photos (in this case exactly 1470 photos ) I'm adding one video. There is still a lot of work to do, finishing the chain skirt, details, rivets, as well as smoothing and final fine-tuning.

I have to take a break tomorrow, so I'll see you the day after tomorrow. Have a nice day and stay safe.

Cheers Borek

 

[MarquisMini]

What can i say, you have a talent and patience for sculpting and creating amazing work.
Keep up the great work my friend!

 

[Borek]

What can i say, you have a talent and patience for sculpting and creating amazing work.
Keep up the great work my friend!

Hi Daniel . Thank you very much mate. I will try

Cheers Borek

 

[NeilW]

Hi Borek,

Looking good and looking forward to the final work.

Just one point about the shield in that it looks flat whereas I understand that they were normally slightly curved. Here's a description of Edward The Black Prince's shield plus some pics and links to both the original and reconstruction below (the scans on the first link show the curve nicely) plus a video of its renovation. Of course this was a funeral display shield (and now doesn't have the rear fittings) and probably more ornate in terms of its moulded leather insignia, but interesting even so.

https://www.canterbury-cathedral.org/whats-on/news/2019/02/05/shield-secrets-to-be-revealed/

Originals (note no label)/reconstructions/recons in situ over the tomb


memorial brasses/memorial tomb (here)/carving... all contemporary C13/14th and show curved shields:



Commercial repro but seems quite authentic:
http://www.medievalrepro.com/shieldsoftheblackprince.htm

The way it's slung on his back also seems to be running interference with the brim of his helmet... clearly an issue if two handed weapons are in use.

BTW: I was always a bit unsure about his pretty athletic pose (in full armour, albeit plate and mail), but I suppose that when we see him interacting with his victim it will make more sense

 

[Mookie]

Great Borek,Given up with my Beesputty,Find it so hard to smooth using brush and warter and tools,Gurss im.used to Magic sculp.
Richard

 

[Borek]

Great Borek,Given up with my Beesputty,Find it so hard to smooth using brush and warter and tools,Gurss im.used to Magic sculp.
Richard

Hi Richard

I totally understand it. Everyone ultimately chooses what suits them best. I used to work exclusively from Magic sculp, but I always wanted to try Polymer Clay when I saw what made it like Raul Garcia Latorre or Allan Carrasco. I started with Fimo and Superculpey, and I had the same smoothing problems as you. I couldn't do it at all. I used vhite sprit to exterminate, but in the end I had better results with a brush and water and tools. After all, when I got the hang of it, and learned it, I went to Bees Putty, where it was the same, but isopropyl alcohol is used instead of White Spirit (WS is too strong a bees putty solvent). But in the end, I use almost exclusively water and tools.
So I fully understand. Smoothing with polymer clay requires some learning curve and experience. But for me it was a victory, because the mass has so many advantages (for me) that I do not regret the time during which I had to acquire the ability to smoothing. Anyway, as I write, everyone likes something different. I wish you a lot of fun in sculpting, no matter what modeling material you use .

Hi Borek,

Looking good and looking forward to the final work.

Just one point about the shield in that it looks flat whereas I understand that they were normally slightly curved. Here's a description of Edward The Black Prince's shield plus some pics and links to both the original and reconstruction below (the scans on the first link show the curve nicely) plus a video of its renovation. Of course this was a funeral display shield (and now doesn't have the rear fittings) and probably more ornate in terms of its moulded leather insignia, but interesting even so.

https://www.canterbury-cathedral.org/whats-on/news/2019/02/05/shield-secrets-to-be-revealed/

Originals (note no label)/reconstructions/recons in situ over the tomb
View attachment 377867 View attachment 377868 View attachment 377869

memorial brasses/memorial tomb (here)/carving... all contemporary C13/14th and show curved shields:
View attachment 377871 View attachment 377872 View attachment 377873


Commercial repro but seems quite authentic:
http://www.medievalrepro.com/shieldsoftheblackprince.htm

The way it's slung on his back also seems to be running interference with the brim of his helmet... clearly an issue if two handed weapons are in use.

BTW: I was always a bit unsure about his pretty athletic pose (in full armour, albeit plate and mail), but I suppose that when we see him interacting with his victim it will make more sense

Thanks a lot for your comment, Neil. The shield is curved, not flat, it may not seem so from the video. I tried to get some information about the degree of curvature of the shields before starting. I found information that shields were most curved at the end of the 13th century and the beginning of the 14th century. They were bigger at the time. During the first half of the 14th century the shields diminished, and the curvature also decreased. The truth is that the degree of curvature at the time of this battle was quite variable, from smaller curvature to relatively major curvature. This variability of curvature and size of shields I would like to maintain in this diorama, each shield I will do separately, and each will be a little different.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the materials, especially the video of the Black Prince Shield restoration is absolutely fascinating. Thanks a lot

Cheers and thank you so much guys
Borek

Here's a photo of Dagworth's shield. It belongs to those with slight curvature ...

 

[NeilW]

Thanks for that Borek,

As you say, in the video it doesn't look curved.

Quite right that being individually hand made the degree of curvature would vary. See below for a close of the scan of the BP's shield and also data on two Scandinavian ones which help illustrate the range.

As ever, I hope I'm giving helpful comments/critique rather than criticism for its own sake

Neil

 

[Borek]

Thanks for that Borek,

As you say, in the video it doesn't look curved.

Quite right that being individually hand made the degree of curvature would vary. See below for a close of the scan of the BP's shield and also data on two Scandinavian ones which help illustrate the range.

As ever, I hope I'm giving helpful comments/critique rather than criticism for its own sake

Neil

Definitely Neil, these are generally great materials, and certainly thank you very much for your contribution. This scan and data of shields is great too, thanks again

Cheers Borek

 

[Nap]

Hi Borek

Thanks for the video ...looks great ..he's very atheletic in armour , but I have seen amazing agility on this subject on you tube

I am not only loving this SBS but also all the information that's being given particularly by Neil ....good on him..it's what PF is all about

Love the video on the preservation

Happy sculpting

Stay safe

Nap

 

[Borek]

Day Six, WIP No. 12

Hi Borek

Thanks for the video ...looks great ..he's very atheletic in armour , but I have seen amazing agility on this subject on you tube

I am not only loving this SBS but also all the information that's being given particularly by Neil ....good on him..it's what PF is all about

Love the video on the preservation

Happy sculpting

Stay safe

Nap

Yes. I even wore full-length armor. It is heavy, but it really allows very dynamic movement. Thanks for the comment and praise . And I agree, Neil is an information treasure for this project


Some progress on the chain mail skirt, so far gross, still needs to be refined.

Cheers Borek

 

[1969]

Hi Borek,
I have only just noticed this thread and have enjoying looking at it tonight, impressive work on the figure and very dynamic pose. I agree with you regarding Beesputty, once you master how to smooth it is a great putty to use.
I will be following now to see this progress more.
All the best
Steve

 

[NeilW]

UPDATED:

Hi Borek, coming on nicely... great 'flow' in the drapery and the plate and mail are fantastic (yet you say that the mail still needs refining... I'll be interested to see how )

I said that I was interested to see how you'd treat the helmet. You said that you'd do it differently from the original reference (the Almaric de Saint Amand detail from Sir Hugh Hastings memorial) which seems to be a fairly standard bascinet with a kettlehat/chapel de fer style brim worn with a bevoir/gorget) and instead gone for the 'all-in-one' kettle hat with an integral bevoir (if one can still call it that?). Compare images and discussion of whether it's an integral piece or a cap on a bascinet below:



I'm not familiar with this style (never seen it before beyond the above illustrations) and don't know whether it is English/French as opposed to something more German, Scandanavian or Eastern European... got any further info on this?

UPDATE: I did some hunting around and came across this superb reference site of medieval manuscript paintings (and memorials/paintings). It's fantastic in that it's tagged so I could isolate all 895 with a chapel de fer/kettlehat.

I've been through all and have only found one of the originals I posted as below (Holkham Bible 1327-35):


Most others are either wearing a cloth (padded?) or mail coif, arming cap, some form or bevoir/gorget or bare headed. Caps/brims on bascinets as per Almaric are also common (including one which seems to suggest that there were separate pieces) plus a few with cheekpieces (mainly Scandinavian).

BTW: I also found the Graham Turner illustration but there don't seem to be any refs for it?

None of this means that the Turner/Holkham ones are incorrect, but they are pretty-much absent from the historical record.

I'll post an update on what I've discovered later today/tomorrow.

Neil

 

[Borek]

Hi Borek,
I have only just noticed this thread and have enjoying looking at it tonight, impressive work on the figure and very dynamic pose. I agree with you regarding Beesputty, once you master how to smooth it is a great putty to use.
I will be following now to see this progress more.
All the best
Steve

Thanks many times Steve, you are welcome to this thread of course. Already on Monday I will start working on another figure of diorama in parallel with finishing this figure.

Have a nice day

Cheers Borek

 

[Borek]

Hi Borek, coming on nicely... great 'flow' in the drapery and the plate and mail are fantastic (yet you say that the mail still needs refining... I'll be interested to see how )

I said that I was interested to see how you'd treat the helmet. You said that you'd do it differently from the original reference (the Almaric de Saint Amand detail from Sir Hugh Hastings memorial) which seems to be a fairly standard bascinet with a kettlehat/chapel de fer style brim worn with a bevoir/gorget) and instead gone for the 'all-in-one' kettle hat with an integral bevoir (if one can still call it that?). Compare images below:

I'm not familiar with this style (never seen it before beyond the above illustrations) and don't know whether it is English/French as opposed to something more German, Scandanavian or Eastern European... got any further info on this?

Neil

Hi Neil

Hi Neil. Thanks a lot for your praise.

As for the helmet, it's like this. Given that young Dagworth has more archaic style armor and skirt, I chose for him helmet of the same type as Almaric, just a little different modification. The helmet is from about 1330 As a base I used a picture by Graham Turner from the book osprey warrior series - English Medieval Knight 1300-1400. I admit that he liked the helmet and the chin a lot and I wanted to get her somehow into the diorama. For this, I chose for Dagworth rather archaic type of armor.

Perhaps I managed to explain, I attach a picture of Graham turner ...

 

[NeilW]

Having had a good look through the manuscripts and other sources the only references that I can find for what looks like an integral visor' (I've seen repro manufacturers call it a 'bearded kettlehat' but can't find the term elsewhere) are:

The Almaric detail from the Hastings memorial brass: clearly a bascinet with a brim (see the artcle as to whether this is integral or not) and a bevoir:


Others with what appear to be integral visors:



It looks to me that Turner's is based on No1. I suggest that this (and Nos 2/3?) could in fact be a poor representation of some form of bevoir/beaver or gorget with typically twisted medieval perspective.



No 3 is problematic in that the first figure seems to have his visor fastened to the outside of the brim: how this would work mechanically is a problem (again poor perspective?)

Otherwise the manuscripts throw up 895 instances* of chapel de fer/kettlehats in a range of styles (see posting below for examples)

NOTE: due to technical problems I've stripped out the pics and re-posted them below

* a further search using 'chapel de fer' 1275 instances.. I've looked at pretty-well all of them

 

[Borek]

Having had a good look through the manuscripts and other sources the only references that I can find for what looks like an integral visor' (I've seen repro manufacturers call it a 'bearded kettlehat' but can't find the term elsewhere) are:
View attachment 378270 View attachment 378267 View attachment 378266 View attachment 378275 View attachment 378264

It looks to me that Turner's is based on No3. I suggest that this (and No2/5?) could in fact be a poor representation of some form of bevoir/beaver or gorget.

No1 is problematic in that the first figure seems to have his visor fastened to the outside of the brim: how this would work mechanically is a problem (again poor perspective?)

Otherwise the manuscripts throw up 895 instances of chapel de fer/kettlehats in a range of styles. notably (just a few examples):

Worn over a mail coif or hood, perhaps padded (whether it's mail or fabric isn't always clear):
View attachment 378283 View attachment 378286 View attachment 378282


Over some form of arming cap:
View attachment 378279
Bare headed:

Composite bascinet/chapel (as per Almeric):
View attachment 378280 View attachment 378284

Or perhaps as separate items (note that these could even be sunhats?):
View attachment 378277 View attachment 378278 View attachment 378281

Some with bevoir/gorget (tend to be later: starting to evolve into sallets):
View attachment 378272 View attachment 378273 View attachment 378274 View attachment 378276

A (very few) with cheekpieces:

These show just how ubiquitous they were bt the C15th (some with eye-slits and evolving into true sallets):
View attachment 378287 View attachment 378288 View attachment 378289

So, pretty-well all combinations are there (most are either mail of fabric hood) yet only one clear instance of the integral visor.

Hi Neil

This is a really interesting topic. I saw virtually the same thing at one knight's event within the reneactment in the Czech Republic. It was precisely because I liked this type of helmet very much that I was interested. The man had that bib under his helmet fastened to the ring hood with leather cords, and a similar cord fixed his chin protection, though on his chin. He himself told me that the construction is according to some old Czech manuscript. But I've never looked for a similar manuscript, so I can't confirm it for sure, but I find it possible. I'd like to leave it there with the intention of that Turner drawing, thinks I can afford it?

However, I would like to place in the diorama one more figure with armor of a more modern type, but with a similar hat and chin / visor or neck cover. I will definitely study these materials, and thank you very much (already several times) for your willingness to sacrifice your time and bring this knowledge. It is very valuable and thank you very much again.

Cheers Borek

 

[Fabien Dougnier]

Really a great work !

 

[NeilW]

Hi Borek,

From your description it sounds as if this was some form of bevoir/gorget separate from the actual helmet rather than integral as Turner's picture seems to suggest?

I suspect this may have been a middle/eastern european style as it doesn't seem to crop up much in the manuscripts nor any other sources I can find.

NB: as I continually make clear... my comments do not detract from your fantastic sculpting and I await further figures with anticipation and pleasure

 

[Borek]

Really a great work !

Welcome to this thread Fabien and thank you very much for the nice words

Hi Borek,

From your description it sounds as if this was some form of bevoir/gorget separate from the actual helmet rather than integral as Turner's picture seems to suggest?

I suspect this may have been a middle/eastern european style as it doesn't seem to crop up much in the manuscripts nor any other sources I can find.

NB: as I continually make clear... my comments do not detract from your fantastic sculpting and I await further figures with anticipation and pleasure

Hi Neil

Yes, it really wasn't part of the helmet, it was a separate chin strapped with laces, but when he wore a helmet over it, it was not recognizable at all, because the harnesses were hidden under the helmet. After all, I think he could theoretically be attached to the helmet, though I haven't met it. Otherwise, thank you very much for the praise, and I definitely take it that way. Your support charges me with new energy, as well as the comments of Nap and others, thanks to you all.

And as for your suggestions, it may seem that I am arguing with you, but the truth is that I am not an expert and I love feedback that is obviously well founded. In fact, I've already drawn a lot of inspiration from your comments and attached photos for some other characters. As for the other helmet of this type, the pictures you added (additionally) to one of the previous comments (and which depicts the Almaric de Saint Amand helmet in more detail) are amazing, and I will probably use it for one of the other characters .

Have a nice rest of the day everyone

Cheers Borek

 

[Borek]

Having had a good look through the manuscripts and other sources the only references that I can find for what looks like an integral visor' (I've seen repro manufacturers call it a 'bearded kettlehat' but can't find the term elsewhere) are:
View attachment 378270 View attachment 378267 View attachment 378266 View attachment 378275 View attachment 378264

It looks to me that Turner's is based on No3. I suggest that this (and No2/5?) could in fact be a poor representation of some form of bevoir/beaver or gorget.
View attachment 378263

No1 is problematic in that the first figure seems to have his visor fastened to the outside of the brim: how this would work mechanically is a problem (again poor perspective?)

Otherwise the manuscripts throw up 895 instances of chapel de fer/kettlehats in a range of styles. notably (just a few examples):

Worn over a mail coif or hood, perhaps padded (whether it's mail or fabric isn't always clear):
View attachment 378283 View attachment 378286 View attachment 378282


Over some form of arming cap:
View attachment 378279
Bare headed:

Composite bascinet/chapel (as per Almeric):
View attachment 378280 View attachment 378284

Or perhaps as separate items (note that these could even be sunhats?):
View attachment 378277 View attachment 378278 View attachment 378281

Some with bevoir/gorget (tend to be later: starting to evolve into sallets):
View attachment 378272 View attachment 378276 View attachment 378265 View attachment 378285 View attachment 378273

A (very few) with cheekpieces:

These show just how ubiquitous they were by the C15th (some with eye-slits and evolving into true sallets):
View attachment 378287 View attachment 378288 View attachment 378289

So, pretty-well all combinations are there (most are either mail of fabric hood) yet only one clear instance of the integral visor.

Hi Neil.

Still a small addition; from the last 4 attached pictures, two cannot be displayed. they are:

K5-Fr1340s.JPG

K14-Gr1430s.JPG

Could you please reinsert the pictures?


Thanks

Cheers Borek