So why should we be here ?

[Ferris]

Come on guys, let this discussion not degenerate into sarcasm and repeating points; we don't want to prove right the members that left the site because of supposed repeated mud-slinging contests do we? ;-)

Cheers,
Adrian

 

[Wayneb]

Amen...Adrian.....totally agree..................Wayne........

 

[tonydawe]

Graham, I'll answer your question.

You should be here because I, and I believe the vast majority of Planet Figure members and viewers, appreciate seeing new releases from sculptors and manufacturers, and this forum gives great exposure for you and other manufacturers to advertise and sell your products to your customers (us). I know most of my figure purchasing decisions are based almost entirely on what I see and read on pF.

I suspect, but can not prove, that there is a strong correlation between how well a figure sells and the response it gets from members on pF and other figure modelling forums. I know that most of the figures and busts that I've purchased over the past 7 years have been previewed first here on pF.

I also suspect, but can not prove, that when a pF member starts a WIP thread on his V Bench, that too can have a positive impact on sales, as it provides a lot of exposure to the figure and gives potential customers a chance to see the figure in detail before they buy it.

I'd hate to see the day when figures manufacturers and retailers like yourself and Stu and Ian and sculptors like Carl don't post their New Releases on pF because you're concerned about negative comments. That would be bad news, as I/ we want to keep getting this information on pF.

The bottom line here gentlemen, is that this forum is at its best when painters, sculptors, hobbyists and professionals, manufacturers, retailers and collectors all respect each other and make our comments in a spirit of friendship and good will. This is not an "us versus them" situation, we are all part of the same hobby.

 

[Wayneb]

Tony............Totally agree.....you said words that I was thinking;..Not to go off on a tangent';...I personally enjoy the reviews and like the previews.....Whether agree or disagree,I'ts our own choice and I like the option....No critique here.............Wayne.....

 

[TADATSUGU]

Ian and Stu, maybe now you appreciate how I felt on a number of occaisions when my comments were misinterpreted and followed by abuse.
Sorry to upset you crf, I wasn't trying to say I mean any manufacturer any harm, I have said that dozens of times before although certain people never seemed to read those posts, only my criticisms. But it's just how I saw this thread arguement.

what I think is a good way to go may be if you see a problem then contact the manufacture by PM have a chat about it then if need be more advice is needed then open it up on another section and discuss it in a professional manner. that way it my just stop the petty arguing that erupts.

Ian, in the case of the flag debate I started, that was long after the figure was produced and therefore too late for a PM to yourself to have had any effect. My detractors seem to have gotten the idea that I sit around all day with a hit-list of manufacturers waiting for the opportunity to put them out of business - Suprise! -when I post on a thread I never even think about the Manufacturer - I am thinking about informing and helping other modellers.

without sculptors and manufactures most people would have nothing to do but wish.

I find this a very arrogant comment. I think most people would just do more scratchbuilding!

Now that's me being just as childish as Tadatsugus post (Sorry if it's offended but silly comments like that just piss me off).

At last you are beginning to get it - me too!

May I point out to everyone including moderators, how posts are worded from people who value historical accuracy and how people who are against rivet counting are wording their replies.
"Dont let the B*****ds get you down"
"Because some ******* bad mouthed it"
"Mr Dogs Piss who has to cock his leg to leave is mark so he can go"
And this is just this thread.
So what is it we are supposed to infer from this? All of us who value historical accuracy are bastards and ********? Descent into personal attack or general vague abuse, whilst others are walking on eggshells.

Well said Gaudin. I can't be childish (intentionally or not), but others can be openly offensive and foulmouthed!

Like you, I am sick of eggshell walking. I have tried to answer people who have attacked me in the past in a rational manner - It got me nowhere (apart from a lot of PM support which I did appreciate). As for the main question being raised here. I don't know why Manufacturers are on this site, I assume they all have different motivations. I'm sorry if anyone wants to leave the site but thats up to them.
On a purely personnal level I have now ceased caring if Carl, Ian or anyone else leave, the world does not revolve around your models alone, despite your fears I doubt my comments will have anything but a negligable effect on your sales, and my own hobby will not be affected one jot.
One more point; I also criticised a recent Pegaso figure preview (along with some other members), guess what - no abusive response at all - what does that suggest

 

[stu]

Hello Everyone

I have decided to set up a separate account for stormtrooper miniatures, so that the business has its own account. The login details to this account will be shared out to people who are involved with the business and as such make up the team around which the passion and ethos is stormtroopers .

The account will be run by the following people,,, at present,,,myself,, Alison,, Mark Bennett,, Carl Reid,, Moz Corry,, Graham Scollick ,, I will be adding to this list soon with more names as ideas that I have unfold.

Although I run and own stormtroopers I want and feel following all of this that I want my personal profile back and professionally this I feel is the correct thing to do. This like My friends at Tiny leads seperates business from pleasure and due to the multiple logins it is not necessarily me representing Stormtroopers. It has become increasingly apparent to me that what I say is/could affect Stormtroopers and I have been advised more than once to watch it by friends,,,hence my abscences for long periods of time.

The new account is sorted so just waiting to be able to post.

I hope you all understand why I wanted to do this.

Stuart

 

[Waterman]

I was going to go into manufacturing myself. I was going to do Winston Churchill uni-cycling across Pegasus Bridge in a pork pie hat and smoking a meerschaum pipe. I know he probably never did any of these things but I don't really care and I can't be bothered checking it out either. I was thinking of asking how many members would heap praise on me so that I could work out my potential profit margin, but I have now gone off the idea in case someone might criticise me - the Horror!

That is one of the most ridiculous childish statements, aimed at a manufacturer, and tongue in cheek i know, but to try and further your argumet in this way, is self destructing and reduces your standing. I had great respect for your knowledge untill this post, now i see you for what you are. It was interesting that Mark had to climb onto your Band Wagon, and grab the oppurtunity to spit his little bit of venom, but then i would not have expected less from him.

 

[Gaudin]

I think (and its just my interpretation) what David tried to demonstrate how a paragraph of that kind evokes a strong negative response ( as evidenced) in exact fashion how similar mocking statements go against the grain the other way.

Yet somehow (and it is my observation, fairly consistently, may be with exceptions) - people who value accuracy do not usually mock the other party, but are subject to mocking and derogatory statements vague enough not to be overtly personal (or direct personal attacks too).

It is somehow acceptable for one group of people to make these statements and everyone is having a good laugh, its just a banter, isn't it? To lighten the mood??
....... but when tables are turned (even for demonstration) - its suddenly ridiculing good fellows and preposterous and malicious and "your evil is unwanted here!"and what not.

Its something I noticed more than a few times.

 

[Mark S]

That is one of the most ridiculous childish statements, aimed at a manufacturer, and tongue in cheek i know, but to try and further your argumet in this way, is self destructing and reduces your standing. I had great respect for your knowledge untill this post, now i see you for what you are. It was interesting that Mark had to climb onto your Band Wagon, and grab the oppurtunity to spit his little bit of venom, but then i would not have expected less from him.

Wow that's got to be a first for this forum, I'm being abused for something someone else said......that's got to speak volumes about the ridiculous nature of this "debate"......you said it right when you mentioned childish statements...anyone threatening to leave this forum unless they only receive positive feedback has got to have serious issues with immaturity and insecurity......and shouldn't be here if they can't handle the honest opinion of the very people most likely to buy their product.....simple as that.

Another reason I may be being attacked here in this instance could have something to do with some of the give away signs in this post.....Band Wagon in capitals sounds like a poorly conceived name for a bad country and western band and the mention of argumet, untill and oppurtunity smells a little like too much tipple to me.

 

[Ferris]

Gaudin, I think you have a point. I find it interesting to study how such discussions develop (sometimes, I do have other stuff to do as well) and I share your observation. My take is that it's not very different from school playgrounds where the studying types are easily picked on by the majority. I"m afraid the 'detailists' suffer a similar fate. They know too much to be likeable and it's easier to make friends by kicking them then to cover them.

Just a thought. Probably rubbish, because we're all adults here and have all outgrown such primal instincts, haven't we?

Cheers,
Adrian

 

[Mark S]

This whole **** stirring thread is unfortunately a good example of many **** stirring threads begun by the same members at seemingly regular intervals.........and seemingly for the same effect.
We are all invited to express our opinions on whatever the latest angst causing topic may be and when we deliver on that request and give our opinion we cop a tirade of abuse.
Well here's a suggestion, don't ask the question in the first place if you already know you're not going to like the answer.
Give us all a break and internally deal with your petty, insignificant turmoils which you mistakenly perceive as being of concern to the rest of us.
Get over it all, please....we've had enough.

 

[ellie]

So David my comment was arrogant was it, one question do you sculpt? if not then what would you do if companies stopped producing that was my point not everyone has the talent or will to sculpt. I don't consider the statement arrogant. As to leaving PF I have not said anything of the sort in any post.

As to saying it was too late to PM me yes your right it was, the master had been cast and the flag was right it was me that put the wrong date which I fixed. I have stayed pretty much in the middle of this debate as you would see if you read my posts you would have seen that. it was only your post about Churchill when I got pissed off. ok it might have been for fun but I found it a little childish. Ok I posted something similar in response and then apologised for slipping into something that I had found childish (We are only human).

I try and see both sides of the debate but you will always have people who feel strongly about their opinions fact of life. but if I'm arrogant for trying to see both side then that's the way I will stay. I stand by my product we do our best to get the best sculpts we can and the best casting. I do listen to advice we don't always ask on her as we have people that work in museums and experts on subjects plus a very big library of our own to look at. a lot of research goes into each and every figure / bust we as producers bring to the public arena.

I'm not an expert in in Napoleonic's but I have a passion for 2nd Empire and have a little knowledge of it I have a good collection of books prints and weapons medals and other equipment from the time. so when I commission a piece from the period I already have a good start and what I lack I can contact a friend in the Paris army museum and another in the royal armouries here in Leeds to get the info I'm short of. so when I release the figure /bust I know I'm as close as dam it. this is just a small part of the work that goes into getting things as spot on as we can. I also run releases to my friends at the White Rose Club who sometimes give good advice on equipment as some of the members have a range of original equipment from all sorts of periods to show.

It's like some members have said in the past if you don't like it then don't buy it you choose. I don't live for praise but if people like what I do then that is great if they like it and buy it that's even better and if that person keeps coming back for more then you have done the job you set out to do and that's to bring a good product to the hobby.

Just to repeat myself I'm going no where and If you find my response arrogant then so be it as I will not change my stand on this.

Ian

www.elliesminiatures.com

 

[Colin_Fraser]

I think we need ice hockey rules here, where penalties can be handed out for unsportsmanlike conduct. Also, ice hockey has an interesting rule where a player can be sanctioned when there is a disagreement between two other players, and the third player comes and inserts himself into a conflict that did not involve him. Generally that happens when a less skilled player rushes to the aid of a perceived star player, who should not have to sully himself with a lowly scrap. Its called "third man in."

"A game misconduct penalty, at the discretion of the Referee, shall be imposed on any player or goalkeeper who is the first to intervene (third man in) in an altercation already in progress except when a match penalty is being imposed in the original altercation."

The reason for the rule is that a third entrant into a disagreement often spreads to a bench clearing brawl.

Seems to me Gaudin has it right. Except for the unsportsman like shots like those we see above, most of the ongoing conflicts regarding the criticize or not criticize issue result from self-appointed "white knights" charging in the defend their heroes when not asked or needed. Just saying.

Colin

 

[TADATSUGU]

Holy Cow! What-a-mistaka-to-makea!
Gaudin seems to understand me, others don't. I don't know what you now think I am Waterman, but I only meant the Churchill as satirical devilment, done in the heat of the moment. In retrospect I can see that it can be read as venomous and that I overstepped the mark. I hope the members who resort to the type of offensive insult that Gaudin refers to can at least do the same.

Ian; the "don't like it - don't buy it" response is made all the time but I never said that I would not buy an anything but a perfect model. It would indeed be very churlish if I didn't buy a model just because it had one button too many. I even said I was still going to but the Hussar piece. I don't equate informing other members of an inaccuracy with telling them not to buy it, but it's obvious that you do. I don't intend to stop making similar comment in future, but I will refrain from doing so in your case and Moz's

This thread illustrates how a simple question or comment (mine included) can escallate. I do intend to try and be rational in future (even though, up to the Chuchill post,I thought I already had been), if others do likewise.

I am now leaving this thread, no doubt to the relief of many.

 

[Colin_Fraser]

And you didn't even post the original reservation. That was a well-meant comment from Ivo, who has has the good sense to move on from the silliness.

 

[ChaosCossack]

Now that's an analogy I actually understand.
As you are far more eloquent than I Colin, perhaps you can also explain the role of the "rat" on a hockey team. It may also apply here.

Colin

 

[ellie]

David the don't like it don't buy it was not directed at you it was a general statement, you have taken what I said out of context I would never tell anyone not to buy some thing. it's up to them to choose what to do. I have never said anywhere don't comment on any of my range and yet again you point the finger. if you wish to comment on a piece of mine then feel free to do so. when you gave your opinion about the old guard I don't remember giving you any abuse, I took on board what you said and did some more research and then decided that not putting a date on it would save Moz sculpting another flag when their was no need too.

Unlike you I will not be leaving the thread I stand by what I have posted I think you think too much of yourself if you think people will be relieved if you stop posting on the thread. that is not an attack it's just an observation.

Ian

www.elliesminiaturres.com

 

[theBaron]

I'll add my mustard, as the Germans say...

I like seeing new releases, and I'll buy 'em, depending on what I think, what I want to paint and build, not what anyone else wants to do. I do read the other posts, but I think it's fairly obvious to serious and sober folks, which posts are honest, well-thought-out criticisms, and which posts are crap or worse, crap with an axe to grind and mean-spirited dreck.

I wouldn't let those things keep you from participating, Graham, especially since you're a Planet veteran.

Or as we used to say at Ursinus, "F*** 'em if they can't take a joke!" which is so good as, ignore 'em.

Prost!
Brad

 

[TADATSUGU]

OMG -sorry to hang around but it seems I can't win, whatever I say !
Ian; I have stated on numerous threads that I have never found you anything other than reasonable and accommodating - check through some of those threads again. Enough please.

 

[tonydawe]

Can the Moderators please shut this thread down. It has served its purpose.