subtle comments

[Wayneb]

Not sure if I should throw out my thinking;but something is bothering me regarding posts with constructive feedback from fellow members of PF that have never posted their work.
Do you really need proof of what they are saying is true;or need to see what they have done to validate their word?
Kinda chaps me up a bit when someone discounts a statement or advice only because they have never seen their work or their work has never been posted.
I believe there are some people that just don't need the fanfare or recognition of their work but are just content to help someone with the knowledge that they have......Hope my thinking is not off base..............Regards to all ................Wayne

 

[Colin_Fraser]

Not sure if I should throw out my thinking;but something is bothering me regarding posts with contructive feedback from fellow members of PF that have never posted their work.
Do you really need proof of what they are saying is true;or need to see what they have done to validate their word?
Kinda chaps me up a bit when someone discounts a statement or advice only because they have never seen their work or their work has never been posted.
I believe there are some people that just don't need the fanfare or recognition of their work but are just content to help someone with the knowledge that they have......Hope my thinking is not off base..............Regards to all ................Wayne

I am always uncomfortable wen I see someone imply that you need to post your work to be qualified to critique....and that you also need to be a better modeller than the subject (whatever better is) to be qualified to comment. We have seen that in the past and I don't agree with it.

Colin

 

[Helm]

Depends on the comment when they've either said or implied that they could could do better then yeah they need to prove that to back up the statement, if it's a generic comment like "I think you need more highlights on the jacket" etc then not so much
Steve

 

[ChaosCossack]

I agree it's not compulsary to post your work in order to comment on other people's work. I don't ask judges at competitions for a sample of their work before they judge mine.When I receive critiques and encouragement here, I accept it gladly as this is how I gather knowledge and improve in my hobby. I do not discount a comment if I haven't seen that persons work.

Most members employ equally the "carrot and the stick" when offering advise ("I like this aspect but that aspect might be better if..." that sort of comment) but I have noticed that there are a couple of members that only bring the stick to the party... always finding something to pick at whether technique, historical accuracy or whatnot... ALWAYS! More highlight, that button should be 1 9/32" wide not 1 1/4", the pupil on the left eye is off by 0.5mm, less highlight... you get it. I've also come to note that these "eagle eyes" are conspicuously absent with their own work. Too bad, I find it helpful to observe the work of others as well as having my work corrected and I gotta figure I could learn by seeing how they might approach the same situation.

Frankly I don't care either way, if one prefers not to participate and would rather just critique the work of others... have at 'er and enjoy. Only finding fault takes effort too.

Feel free to comment

Colin

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

Some interesting points here,but there is a special section on planet for extreme critique should anyone dare to put there stuff in there
I have come to know most of the guys in and around PF and most of them are pretty damned good painters and modellers ,the bar on planet can be very high indeed
but Im sure it helps all.

A point of note : At Euro the judges have a display cabinet for their work so everyone can see who is judging them .
Here on PF you can look in the albums section and see most of the planateers work ,one little thing I notice is that the top painters very rarely criticise

Ron

 

[harrytheheid]

the bar on planet can be very high indeed
Ron

I couldn't agree more Ron - the standard here is certainly very high indeed, but since I began looking in on The Planet more often, I've found that the high standards have helped me to raise my own - and it seems to be having the desired affect because even I can see the vast difference between what I was turning out a few years ago compared to what I can do now. I honestly belive that close observation of the diverse range of subjects on show here, and the helpful advice that's freely given, has helped me improve my efforts tremendously.
Cheers
H

 

[DEL]

I'm inclined to agree with Colin and Steve. There's no problem if a 'critic' points out a weakness so long as they offer a constructive solution or alternative technique.
As to the very few (less than there used to be) who simply criticise for the sake of it, do they realise or care how this is received by the painter who has had the guts to post?
This reaches it's lowest point when the ill considered criticism is leveled at someone new to the hobby.
The saving grace here is that usually well respected and experienced modelers and painters weigh in and the 'critic' normally heads for cover.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Actually, to me it matters in a way. But most important is the general perception I have of the poster. Most of them I listen to and a selected few is very important whether I agree or not. Some I have come to not care the slightest of their opinion. It does not have to do such much with their skill rather than the actual input and the sence and logic in the input.

If you are coming from nowhere and know it all, some questions are surely to be raised?

Especially when doing stuff like armour and aircraft. I have seen so many modellers over the years to post critique without having any knowledge about the subject. Very many, -They didnt look like that or didnt get that dirty!

When pictures is brought into the discussion, the proof is only met with silence. A few months after that, they are at it again in another topic, offering their expertize only to have the circle repeated.

Hmm, perhaps I sound a little bitter here, a smiley would cheer it up?

Cheers
Janne Nilsson

 

[Ferris]

No I don't think you need to show your own work or be better to critique.
It all depends on the message and how it is delivered.

The only way to learn and get better is to receive critique.
However, like many things in life that are good for you, getting critique also sort of sucks.
Since we paint figures for our enjoyment, this creates a bit of a paradox.
Some people are better at finding the right tone and message than others, but basically we should value or critique. If it's truly unfounded it shouldn't bother us.

I think a good guideline is to always point out something you like in addition to the point of critique.

Overall, I must say we are a rather nice bunch here at PF and I don't see many harsh or unfounded critiques. Other forums are much more direct and ruthless. But this politeness is one of the things I like about PF actually.

Cheers,
Adrian

 

[Helm]

As an addentum I always ask for comments on my work and value any critique given, however I find that it helps if somebody I dont know at all has examples of work posted so I can see what they mean as to me its easier that way. Some of the people who comment most are those whos work I would love to be able to emulate so seeing how or what they've done inspires me onward.
Steve

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Perhaps I should also mention that it goes the other way around as well. There are people who doesnt give a "shait" about my comments on their work.

So all fair and square.

Cheers
Janne Nilsson

 

[DEL]

Perhaps I should also mention that it goes the other way around as well. There are people who doesnt give a "shait" about my comments on their work.

So all fair and square.

Cheers
Janne Nilsson

 

[gothicgeek]

An interesting Wiki!

 

[John Bowery]

I usually check to see if the poster is requesting critique or not requesting. I think this makes a difference. I try not to offend by critiqueing (American spelling ?) a non critique post. You get to choose the type of post. I also have learned a great deal from PF both with my posts and reading others posts and comments and thinking " I will have to try that".
Cheers
John

 

[tonydawe]

Back in 1972, when I was 6 years old, my Dad took me to a local IPMS meeting in Melbourne and I took along two 1/35th scale Tamiya figures in the hope of meeting fellow figure modellers who could help me improve. The figures were the best I could do and I was very proud of them. I was hoping someone else would provide me with some encouragement and advice.

One man came over and picked up my figure (in front of me and my Dad) and said, "That's **** kid. Find yourself another hobby." We left immediately and I cried all the way home in the car. That ignorant, mean-spirited and nasty comment burned deep, and over 40 years later it still motivates me. It's one of the reasons why I like mentoring young modellers here on pF and at my local model club and through the Western Australian Scale Model Expo.

My old Grandmother used to say "Opinions are like ********; everyone has one".

Actually Grandma would never have said anything so vulgar, but the quote still makes a valid point.

The value you place on someone elses opinion depends upon several things including; Did you ask for a critique? Was it given in the spirit of constructive criticism, Is the opinion from someone who knows what they are talking about? and Can the person providing the opinion jutsify it if asked to do so?

I don't care if someone who offers an opinion doesn't post their own photos on pF. They have a right to express their opinions like any other member.

If I have specifically asked for "critique" then I have deal with it, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it and give it credence. If someone makes what I consider to be an ill-informed, spiteful or ignorant comment or unfairly criticises my work, or the work of another modeller on this forum, then I will stand my ground and challenge that person to justify their comments.

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

Back in 1972, when I was 6 years old, my Dad took me to a local IPMS meeting in Melbourne and I took along two 1/35th scale Tamiya figures in the hope of meeting fellow figure modellers who could help me improve. The figures were the best I could do and I was very proud of them. I was hoping someone else would provide me with some encouragement and advice.

One man came over and picked up my figure (in front of me and my Dad) and said, "That's **** kid. Find yourself another hobby." We left immediately and I cried all the way home in the car. That ignorant, mean-spirited and nasty comment burned deep, and over 40 years later it still motivates me. It's one of the reasons why I like mentoring young modellers here on pF and at my local model club and through the Western Australian Scale Model Expo.

My old Grandmother used to say "Opinions are like ********; everyone has one".

Actually Grandma would never have said anything so vulgar, but the quote still makes a valid point.

The value you place on someone elses opinion depends upon several things including; Did you ask for a critique? Was it given in the spirit of constructive criticism, Is the opinion from someone who knows what they are talking about? and Can the person providing the opinion jutsify it if asked to do so?

I don't care if someone who offers an opinion doesn't post their own photos on pF. They have a right to express their opinions like any other member.

If I have specifically asked for "critique" then I have deal with it, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it and give it credence. If someone makes what I consider to be an ill-informed, spiteful or ignorant comment or unfairly criticises my work, or the work of another modeller on this forum, then I will stand my ground and challenge that person to justify their comments.

Back in 1972 when I was 100 years old I was painting war game figures Napoleonic 25mm by Hinchcliffe I was introduced to a painter and soon to become a sculptor from Scotland, I showed him my stuff which I was very proud of and he exclaimed "this is rubbish" He then showed me some of his 25mm stuff and pointed out all the things that I hadn't
done and said you must do this and do that and such and such .

Off I went taking heed of his advice which was all good even so somewhat abrupt at the time , a year or so later and moving up the scales to 54 and 75 mm I entered a competition in Glasgow and low and behold he was the judge I must have done something right as I got best of show ,he then took me under his wing with many visits to his house showing me everything that he knew about painting . so critique does work !! well in my case a little bit

Ron

 

[ChaosCossack]

You are so right Ron.
Notice the tiny difference between your scenario and Tony's? Tony's guy gave negative critisism (that's crap- the end!!) your guy gave positive critisism (that's crap- now here's how to fix it). Tony may have been so discouraged as to never paint again (glad you didn't Tony) while you were taught something and improved.
I coached kids hockey and lacrosse for 27 years as well as played high level hockey all my life and found that ONLY pointing out mistakes (even if you correct them) destroys confidence. The kick in the ass must be tempered with a pat on the head. At the very least, point out the mistake, offer a fix then give praise when the error is corrected. I also noted that when a coach/teacher only focuses on the negative (even when the end result is successful ie kid scores a goal, comes to the bench and the coach gives him a "shoulda done it like this" instead of a "thata boy!") over and over, all the time, eventually the player will just turn a deaf ear thinking "doesn't matter what I do he'll find something wrong"". AT THIS POINT THE LEARNING STOPS.

This all has nothing to do with critics posting or not, but I have noticed that some members here (the very small minority I might add) fall into the negative critic catagory and I found that, coincidently, I haven't seen their work here.

I keep coming back here, post my work (which desperately needs improvement) and seek critiques because 99% of the members here offer positive critique, give ideas on how to fix my weaknesses and give encouragement when I show improvement. And I can look at examples to see how it would look if I were to take that advice.

That's what makes this site so successful

Colin

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

While we are on the subject of critique and painting I think there is another learning curve which a lot of newcomers to the hobby overlook especially as we get bombarded with new wondrous creations every week . That is to look deep and hard at what you are about to buy.
Is the detail good ,is the anatomy right ,is this a subject that I would like to paint ,has the face got a bit of character or is it bland ,it is so easy to impulse buy hence the huge grey armies that some of us have Like most crafts it takes a bit of time to train the eye , as a young bricklayer a foreman said to me that corner is not plumb son! I looked at and said to myself how the hell can he see that especially since i had put a level on it and new it wasn't . Simple trained eye IT takes time

Ron

 

[[email protected]]

Well if you paint and post, you already have an idea of what the what is. And you are looking for help for things you are not sure of. We are all looking for a pat on the back an some encouragement to help to fix and get better. You should be thick skinned and move on to the next post that is critically positive, to do anything less is a disservice to yourself and the hobby. Be strong stay strong !!!
This is several pints talking here!!!!

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Reading the latest post I come to the conclusion that if you are about to give hard critisism, you should be prepared to guide the person through the flaws.

Reading Marks link I wonder if "critism" is somewas related to "critical" as we must have some form of critisism to evolve.

Cheers
Janne Nilsson