The state of the hobby?

[brian]

Hi
I must be the oldest on this forum, who's still painting figures and i would like to comment on the state of the hobby.
I remember when i first started out painting figures there was no WIP articles ,videos, and no feedback from like minded people.So it was all trial and error.Thankfully things have changed, where there's no end to info, which can be readily available,firstly with magazines and then with access on the internet.
I started painting with oils and still use oils,then along came the acrylics, which when first appeared it was all a bit over the top, especially in the blending IMO.It's changed dramatically since then, and it's amazing what can be done with acrylics nowadays.
Then came the digital camera which again brought new changes to the hobby,especially with photoshop.Call me old fashioned but i love seeing figures in the flesh,rather than a zoomed in picture of a left nostril or eyeball up close.
Then came the advent of the airbrush on figures.I used an airbrush when i was into AFV many moons ago,but i can't get my head round using it on figures.I've seen video's of 54mm figures entirely painted with an airbrush.I've used grey primer with a halo of white primer to establish the contrasting areas on a figure on occasion.
It all seems to me ,like everything else, that it's a definite speedy way to paint a figure.When i paint a figure i incorporate my blood ,sweat and tears into the painting of a figure but i get great pleasure when it all comes together and i'm pleased with the result(not always).
Don't get me wrong, i love the effects that the airbrush can do ,but what worries me is, what's the next innovation going to be.
The hobby is becoming more artistic, probably with the advent of the upsurge in fantasy figures, which to my mind is a good thing, as it will pull in the young blood that the hobby will always need.
Just my thoughts on the hobby, which is thriving IMO, but as fantasy is a separate category at shows, the time may come when the special effects, which the new innovations bring to the hobby may have to be put in a separate category.
This is obviously my own personal opinion, and would like to hear from you guys, and what your take is on this hobby of ours.
Brian

 

[Ferris]

Well Brian, I'd say you are as old as you feel!

About the state of the hobby: I have been figure modeling for just a few years now and have the feeling this is a golden age. There are new releases almost daily (see the news section) and many of them are truly amazing, and very close to perfection. We can select paints of different types and have access to a lot of new materials (microballoons, acrylic gels, cyano glue, putties of many types, etc.) and tools (such as the dreaded airbrush, photo-etched metal, resin, 3d printing).

Then we have the internet. Brilliant source of reference on whatever we want to paint, a way to interact with and learn from fellow modelers all over the world and THE way to buy whatever we need from whoever is selling it. Indirectly it is killing off bricks and mortar shops, which is sad in a way, but it also enables many manufacturors to produce stuff that would never have been commercially produced. The market for such niche products would never have been big enough without it. Overall, in my view, it is the internet that enabled the huge rise in quantity and quality on offer.

So I follow you that things are different today than when you started with the hobby. However, I wouldn't know why you should worry about further change? I realize change means the disappearance of some things (such as your cherished Brown Madder ;-), but overall I think it mainly adds and brings opportunity. We are free to ignore some changes if we don't like them, such as the airbrush. I am not a fan of busts, but even if I ignore them there are plenty of new figures to choose from. Most of the change simply adds, in my view; sometimes little, sometimes a lot.

Overall I see change in the hobby as a 'positive sum game'. Change will happen. Let's pick the best and skip the rest, and hope things continue in this upward way.

Cheers
Adrian

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

Are you older than 145 then you must relax about this airbrush thing ,after all the great wizard judge of euro demonstrates the use of one in his video .
Most of the changes are for the good ; like you can move around from one historical period to another without having to start a new collection of books , or someone can post an article about great new brushes which are nice and cheep in comparison and the whole world buys them and throws the price up

I have just bought a modelling book which I find most disappointing ,two paragraphs donated to historical background which would have been better filled with the painting technique which was almost non existing, will bring it along at our next meet and you can have a swatch
So its the forum for me ,so much information available . Viva la progress

 

[Colin_Fraser]

I agree we are in a golden age. My only reservation is that I am seeing some movement to everyone having the same painting style especially in the acrylics area. I put that down to availability of SBSs and photos of top line models. When I look at the photos from Stresa, I can't help but think that the same guy could have painted 80% of the entries. But my God he's good though! Also I am sure I would have a different view had I been fortunate enough to attend in person.

I love the net for research, info sharing and product availability. Haven't bought a mag in years (or looked at one).

42 years in the hobby so far!

Colin

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

ITs a system Colin ,paint sets with all the shades mapped out for you ,a bit like painting by numbers although you need to be able to do the blending , the flesh tones all seem to be taking the same direction with the acrylic guys ; suits the paint I suppose

 

[Mirofsoft]

Yes; 1972 was the year for me . Started with Humbrol, continued with W&N oils, mixed both of them, painted some horses in acrylic, made highlights some time with
hard pastel powder . ( It was also a period when lot of "competing painters" didn't want to share; nowadays with lot of exception like Longhurst, Lamb, Verlinden, peoples I meet and not shy about sharing )
Remember seing also ( in the 70ies ) Labayen figures studio painted a stuning way with.. water colours ( Plaka )
And today, if I'm well informed, S Paynes is still painting with Humbrols
So all medium are welcomed . Even if I personaly think that actualy lot of figures painted with acrylics tends to look a bit "chalcky" And lot are painted as if they were only 2D, using techniques used to make comics books cover . It's great work but give me a wrong feeling .
Still lot of painted figurines continues to amaze me, by their finesse .

 

[Graham]

I like to think that most 'progress' is self generated. Acrylics seem to be a bigger issue in figure painting than in scale modelling where, by and large, they have been met with open arms. There are still some die hards who insist on painting their models with enamels and long may they continue to do so, some only use a hairy brush, very much the minority now in scale modelling.

I see serious figure painting, as opposed to casual figure painting to add to dioramas of vehicles as a secondary object, as the 'Artistic' side of modelling. Like many art forms, there have been changes but looking at painting as an art form, today's painters are not so far removed from the great masters other than by the choice of mediums. I bet some of the great masters would have loved to dabble with acrylics even if some of them then reverted to oils through choice.

We still have that choice. I don't see change being forced on people nor do I see it happening by eliminating previous methods and materials. There may be some but I don't see many bemoaning the rise of resin as a casting material.

The internet has affected all types of modelling dramatically and, mainly, for the good. Would Airfix have risen from the ashes like it has to become a brand leader again if not for the internet? Modelling forums have saved the hobby in my opinion and allows people from many walks of life and geographical location to meet up and share their skills and ideas. Obviously they are also followed my manufacturers trying to convince us that we can't survive without their products. This again is no bad thing as every now and again some innovative idea comes along and genuinely enhances the hobby.

So, for me, change/progress is good while ever it refrains from instant obsolescence of previous methods and materials. As for online tutorials creating a sameness, in some respect I wish it did. That way, I could have an evening on Youtube and become a good figure painter. I can vouch for this not being the case as no matter how many I watch, I still need to make them brushes do the business and they are still being stubborn in the extreme and refuse to do so....... In fact, I could say that all the diverse techniques shown in these tutorials tend to confuse as much as educate.

 

[bonehead]

Brian,

Overall, I have to agree with Adrian. Just put me down for a ditto on all his comments.

Having said that, I think many of your comments are subjective and only partly true in the grand scheme of things. I first started "doing" figures in the '70s. What with the excellent Shep Paine modeling guides in those old Monogram model kits, and the little postage stamp sized photos of figures in those old (small sized!) issues of Military Modelling, and a couple of admittedly crappy American modeling mags, I had all I needed to get going painting, and eventually even sculpting. I wanted my stuff to look like the figures in those photos. And, oddly enough, all i needed were those often little bitty photos to show me where to go.

I never painted with oils. I tried them and found them utterly useless. The results were only embarrassing for me. I painted with model paints because i was a modeler and those were the paints I had on hand! Admittedly, I was slow to pick up on acrylics primarily because I already knew how to paint with model enamels. I only switched over to acrylics because the model enamels have deteriorated so much in quality that they were no longer viable for me. I only changed because i had to. But I do think that acrylics are a good alternative to my preferred medium of model enamels.

The perception that the digital camera takes pics of a gnat's behind that are light years ahead of my old film cameras is not really true either. The difference is more incremental than monumental. But I have to admit that digital editing is a true quantitative leap in ability. That is a sea change for sure.

When I first started using the airbrush on figures about 25 years ago (and decals too), there were some well known painters that accused me of "cheating". I have always laughed in the face of such criticism. To my mind, the only thing that counts is the final result. If I can find easier ways to achieve an end result, then that is working smart - not cheating! Only the hair-shirt wearer gets anything out of donning their irritating apparel. What they get is irritation. Sorry, but I do not see any value in that at all.

The internet is an awesome research tool. But one only has to see my extensive library to know that i still depend on it for a large part of my research. Besides, I like a book you can actually hold in your hands and refer back to when needed. But, of course, that is just my own antiquated perception. I do not watch modeling videos online. Perhaps i should, but I personally see no real need for them. I have gone decades without them and feel no kind of deprivation without them.

I have to agree that the fantasy modelers now represent the future of this hobby. I did not realize what an impact they were having until I went to a couple of national shows this past year. Sadly, I am a historical modeler and that is the part of this hobby which is going the way of the dodo. It is mostly us older guys that have any interest in that. Although I can appreciate the artistic merit of fantasy figures, I do not "get" most of them. They hold no charm for me beyond the modeling aspects of them.

So, I guess that makes me an old dinosaur. And I too shall eventually go the way of the dodo.....

 

[ChaosCossack]

Some interesting points are brought up here.
I believe that while not letting go of the "traditions" of our hobby it is also wise to be open to the new possibilities available. That way we can add to what we already enjoy without losing what are comfortable with.
Sift through the new opportunities, keeping what's useful to YOU and adding it to your arsenal and expanding the tools you can use to get the results you desire.
Just because something is new, it's not better or worse by default... the same goes for what is "old". USE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU!!! Picking up on something new also doesn't mean you must abandon what you're used to.

BTW, I would much rather use a book for research than the net

Colin

 

[Blind Pew]

Yes, this may well be a Golden Age in some respects. The quality overall of figures we see released is, in the general run of things, quite high.
Certainly I see a more diverse range of figures released than ever before. For instance, Napoleonics are now in the minority. Not something we expected to see a few short years ago.

As for a painting style, I do agree than you look at show reports or see stuff at shows, and there is a predominant painting style in evidence that is certainly in vogue. We've all seen it. Very extreme highlighting / shading. I'm not sure if I'm a fan personally, although you can't argue with the quality.

I think what the fantasy guys have shown us is how to present a figure, there is no question in my mind they have improved overall presentation.

And 'the web' has brought together all kinda stuff, I wouldn't know where to begin.

 

[Blue Thunder]

I feel young, chaps! Cheers!


This hobby has an evolution! But a slow one. Just compare video games of the 50's and video games of these days!

Hey wait! In the 50's there were no video games . There are fields that move really fast: Six years ago Google Play Store didn't exist. Nowadays it generates billions. In the meantime, our most recent invention were paint sets: Andrea Black and Andrea White were quite innovative in our corner, but incomparable to the tablet revolution, to playstore, to app store and things like that.


However I have one major concern that can kill the market but not the hobby:

Counterfeiters selling resin figures in highly visible sites such as eBay. This hobby is pricey, the chain value is outdated, and here is where pirates find their opportunity to cast and sell perfect clones at a quarter the price. If they have chances to sell this stuff on eBay ... bye bye brands and bye bye innovators.

I wonder why manufacturers don't complain about this!!! Only me!!!

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

I feel young, chaps! Cheers!


This hobby has an evolution! But a slow one. Just compare video games of the 50's and video games of these days!

Hey wait! In the 50's there were no video games . There are fields that move really fast: Six years ago Google Play Store didn't exist. Nowadays it generates billions. In the meantime, our most recent invention were paint sets: Andrea Black and Andrea White were quite innovative in our corner, but incomparable to the tablet revolution, to playstore, to app store and things like that.


However I have one major concern that can kill the market but not the hobby:

Counterfeiters selling resin figures in highly visible sites such as eBay. This hobby is pricey, the chain value is outdated, and here is where pirates find their opportunity to cast and sell perfect clones at a quarter the price. If they have chances to sell this stuff on eBay ... bye bye brands and bye bye innovators.

I wonder why manufacturers don't complain about this!!! Only me!!!

It's hard to pin them down and if you do the fines are small compared to the profit .
The best that can be done is ; don't buy from them.
All hobbies are pricey ,model railway guys spend so much they can hardly afford new clothes ,golf is a small fortune ,`Salmon fishing is a large fortune

 

[kagemusha]

Great thread Brian and, like you and many others, I am an 'oldie'. When I look back on the 40+ years I have been involved with this hobby, I have to admit it is a huge part of my life, a safety net if you will.
A short while back, I took a break from every thing to do with all aspects of modelling. I will admit that the recent influx of so many 'sets' of the new style acrylics, left me feeling confused as to what I should be doing/using.
As a traditionally trained oil user, I felt that unless I switched to acrylics, I would be left behind so to speak. As others have mentioned, there seems to be an 'in vogue' style that, try as I might, I could never hope to emulate.
I sat down and took a long hard look at what I wanted to achieve. What struck me, was how much I missed painting after only a couple of weeks. I just couldn't work out what it was I wanted to paint.
With so many great figures and busts to choose from these days, it was not about having a limited choice of subject matter, more about how I wanted them to look when finished.
It has already been mentioned that it shouldn't matter what tools you use, just that you are pleased with the result. With this in mind, I chose to return to a tool I had not picked up for 20 years, the airbrush.
This decision was partly based on the influx of acrylics sets which, as the manufacturers state, are ideally suited to this tool. It is a choice that has proven to be the right one for me.
Again, as previously mentioned, it was the internet that provided the inspiration for suitable pieces to experiment with and, as also said, it fell into the 'fantasy' category.
When I eventually got back to the bench, it was with a different attitude/perspective to how things would take shape in painting my chosen piece.
Strangely enough, I soon discovered that the airbrush, whilst being a valid tool, has it's limitations. As soon as I reached those limits, it was back to the brushes, and it was the oils that came out in preference to acrylics.
So, has the hobby changed? Yes. Has it suffered for those changes? IMHO, no. To me at least, the changes have been for the better. More subjects to choose from. Better quality of sculpting/casting. A greater choice of tools/materials to work with.
A worldwide library of reference material at your fingertips and, best of all, forums like Planet Figure where you can interact with some of the best people in the hobby.

Ron

 

[Graham]

Sadly, piracy is now acceptable in the mindset of the general public. I see it as theft, pure and simple but so many think it's ok to copy music, copy software and just about anything else. The problem is that, as much as the copyright owner may complain, no one else appears to think it is wrong and, to be honest, it is a waste of time them trying to combat it because of the lack of anything to back them up in putting pirates out of business.

Funny how Trading Standards seem to spend a lot of resources getting the fake designer label stuff off the streets, could it be the millions of pounds the big companies make that make them special. Same with fake cigarettes, trading standards will go after them alright, could it be the millions of pounds in lost revenue for the Government? But you get a one man business try and get them to do something about their products being pirated, not a chance......

 

[ChaosCossack]

Graham, in our situation, it's the buyers who have to police the pirates by boycotting.

 

[Blue Thunder]

It's hard to pin them down and if you do the fines are small compared to the profit .
The best that can be done is ; don't buy from them.
All hobbies are pricey ,model railway guys spend so much they can hardly afford new clothes ,golf is a small fortune ,`Salmon fishing is a large fortune

I understand what you say Ron. I really do!

Try now to understand me: hobbies are expensive, but in this hobby there's a way to cut the price. And that way will kill existing brands. Model railway is expensive but you can't recast a loco. Airplane modelling too but casting a Great Wall F-15 Eagle is senseless.

On the other hand, right here - a cast and a recast have the same materials and time involved. If a counterfeit has "shelf space" on eBay they will wipe out current brands. You can legitimately say "hey guys don't buy", but money always talks louder.


This is my concern! By the way - not only in modelling this happens. I don't read a strong business plan in Apple for the upcoming years. In the past, when Steve Jobs was alive, Tim Cook build an impressive sub contracting machine over seas. Now all manufacturers learnt how to develop cell phones in Six Sigma environments and are launching their own products making the iPhone something outdated. Either iPhone 6 is really something or this company will go down the toilet exactly like Nokia did: From God to ant.

It's all about the same: If competitors do the same, price makes the difference. However in this hobby recasts would be something only to be sold in a dark alley, where normally all illegal stuff is sold. I just wonder what will come next! Will eBay start selling weed online?

 

[Bailey]

Very interesting thread. I would agree that fantasy/sci-fi topics are definitely becoming more numerous at shows and I see that trend continuing. I think a lot of that has to do with how new blood is brought into this hobby, and lately that's been through the gaming community (Warhammer Fantasy and 40K, Privateer Press's Warmachine and Hordes, etc). Yes there are historical wargames but I don't see many young people playing those. That being said, anyone at any age can have an interest in history. I'd like to think I'm part of the younger crowd (33) and over half of my projects are historical figures. In some cases it's just a matter of exposure. The people painting the gaming figures aren't always aware of all the companies that just produce display models. Part of that can also be related to cost. A nice display figure can get pretty expensive. That's another reason young people might tend towards the fantasy/sci-fi gaming stuff. I expect you'll see more companies produces fantasy and sci-fi ranges along with their historical figures. In the last year or two I've started to see more of those types of figures in 54mm, 75mm, and 90mm on the market.

I do think that the fantasy and sci-fi subjects have helped push the artistic side of the hobby. People feel a lot more free exploring color combinations and effects (warm colors, cool colors, etc) on non-historical figures. Other techniques like non-metallic metal or object source lighting seem to be embraced more by the fantasy painters than the historical ones. Not to say historical can't teach the fantasy people stuff too. I'd like to see more fantasy and sci-fi stuff painted in a super realistic style, weathering and all. I always wonder at what point does my figure painting go from just filling in the lines to truly creating a piece of art. I think new techniques and styles really help with that.

As for the comments about airbrushes... I say it's just a tool. They make some things easier but not everything. A hammer is great if you're trying to nail to pieces of wood together, less so if you've got to cut one in half. Maybe there's someone out there who can use an airbrush to paint the eyes on their 54mm figures but I seriously doubt that will ever be the norm. Base coating, large figures, vehicles, plenty of good uses for the airbrush. But to paint the majority of a small figure to a high level with the airbrush takes a ton of skill. If it speeds things up that's good too. Heck, I've already got enough kits sitting in my closet to last me until I retire and I keep buying more! If I can figure out a way to paint them faster and still retain the same quality then I'm all for it. I'd be ecstatic if I can just get the rate at which I finish kits closer to equaling the rate at which I buy them. But I can promise you, if I ever master the airbrush there will always be sections on small scale figures where I'll still need to use a regular brush.

 

[brian]

Hi
Well,I didn't expect so much input on this thread i started, some good, some not so good.I wrote it to see how other people thought about the hobby,nothing more ,nothing less.
I get the feeling that i've come across as an old guy living in the past by some of the comments made, but obviously you don't know me that well.
I quote
".Thankfully things have changed, where there's no end to info, which can be readily available,firstly with magazines and then with access on the internet." This is a quote from my first post.

I reckon with the advent of the fantasy boys, and acrylic painters, especially the young Spanish lads and they're creative style of painting is a major plus to our hobby.
The South Koreans have taken painting with acrylics to a new level, that is soooo well done and lifelike ,that you would think that their painting was done in oils.The realism is mind blowing!!

Airbrushing is one aspect of the hobby that ,although very good, doesn't sit well with me .I have no qualms about using it as an aid, but when you can watch on You Tube a horse being almost totally painted with an airbrush, except maybe the eyes and the hoofs for example,and figures especially busts that i've seen, being painted much the same way doesn't turn me on i'm afraid . I quote Mike Good
- "To my mind, the only thing that counts is the final result. If I can find easier ways to achieve an end result, then that is working smart - not cheating! "
By saying this, Mike more or less states, that it's easier to airbrush.In Mikes defence to be fair, as he was, and still is a commercial painter, where easier and obviously speedier methods would be a boon.
I much prefer to sit on my own,taking as much time as i want to paint a figure,as to me,that's part of the enjoyment.
Brian

 

[Babelfish]

We never had it so good!

- Steve

 

[Mark S]

Just like everything else in life I'd love to go back and take advantage of what I know now as far as painting goes but if I did I'd only have a handful of second rate figures to choose from anyway.

I'm very encouraged to see so many new manufacturers appear on the scene with such high quality figures.That fact alone is as good an indication of the hobbies health as anything else.
But having said that, personally I can see potential for a plethora of new subject matter in our figures, many which are yet to be tapped.

Another good indication of the health of the hobby was it's ability to survive the figure manufacturer's Crusade of Knight's Templar, Hospitallers and general Crusaders. The fact is more Crusader figures have been produced than the real thing actually showed up in the Middle East.
The hobby is now going through a ww2 German phase and will go through many more, and one can't blame any manufacturer for concentrating on what currently sells but we are seeing a wider choice of subject matter now than ever before.........that's the most encouraging thing for me.

Tip for you Brian,......I've got to an age now that I only use the airbrush on myself these days,.....a touch up here and there, so I don't scare the kiddies.