The state of the hobby?

[Gra30]

To have a reserve of masters is a gamble., for any business, we sit on thousands.
Not a sob story but our choice

X is not meeting Y as the market is being flooded cheaply with crap casts but good sculpts.

Hence master costs go up, and the figure market is changing.
I really think this will the the best year so far as at the minute we cannot continue like this.

 

[Gra30]

My friend, don't shoot a messenger, shoot events!


Your arguments are common hearing: "recasters are low on quality, don't give your cc to recasters, they don't do after sales... yadda yadda yadda ... and so on and so on and so on" there are tons of pages here with this same symphony. Even before the web the arguments were exactly these!

Wake! It's distribution and visibility! A counterfeiter using eBay platform means eBay is protecting financial data from buyers and giving them buyers protection. If people dislike - people leave negative feedback. And all I see here are praises and sales:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller


I want originals and innovative products from innovative brands crafted from the best artists this worlds knows.


Unfortunately just three months after the release of the highly praised Knight at Jerusalem comes a knock off:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-9-resin-k...9238?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item4d2004d476


And the legitimate miniature remains unsold:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nutsplanet-...es_ModelKits_ModelKits_JN&hash=item2a3e4f21a2


THIS IS THE PROBLEM!

and the problem, like all problems, is just beginning.


If the money was mine, would I pay a sculptor to craft a novelty knowing I would face this risk? The answer is no! Because experience is on my side. So if experience is not on the side of these exceptional entrepreneurials they will learn the painful way what will come next: Raise in inventory, lower in cash.


Ferris you and I are on common ground about fakes. The difference is that I'm trying to alert what will happen in about two years to these great names ... and not what is happening today!

Screens don't help to properly pass a message. I.D. this trend - try to see in a name such as Young the number of novelties per year: 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 ...

I am sorry Blue, and you have supported me. Why oh why are you mentioning recasting every fxxxxxing time. Most of us work other ways, tell you what I will send you 2 busts for copying. Then put expense in to cast etc.
I appreciate your support but you keep bringing up recasting is really really annoying me, it doesn't affect you!

 

[Blue Thunder]

Graham, I'm mentioning recast because I see a major problem in this situation. And major means major!

And ignoring or letting it go, won't solve a problem that you, and all other producers have in hands: I don't like to use the verb "f", but since you shot first blood, It is frigging inconceivable that a knock off has identical visibility to something you invest time and money to bring to life.

Graham, respectively I decline your offer. I could easily say you were drinking a few shots more, but I understand sometimes screens don't pass a message correctly: Get this - I am supporting you, people! You have lovely pieces for sale! But please, don't cover your eyes with a sieve, because you really have a big problem to solve.

And I don't.


Ain't the world strange? So why do I bother? Simply because I want to buy more creations from you and so many other names in business.


My friend, don't put your anger on me! Put it in the cause - not in the guy warning you!

 

[Gra30]

Yes Blue,
My upmost apologies.
You support in every way, I am sorry.
It is the little devil when recast is mentioned.
I am sorry for any offence, I will not edit previous as I never meant to offend really,me specially you.
I just hate recasts, sorry if presented wrong,passion though my friend
Sorry for being a dick to all
Best wishes, sorry Blue please accept my sorry for presenting and taking on you, no excuse
Gra
Friend still?

 

[Gra30]

The way I'm going I will be giving free figures away to make amends

 

[Colin_Fraser]

The way I'm going I will be giving free figures away to make amends

That's an idea. Undercut the pirates.

Colin

 

[Gra30]

30 free apologies funds a new fig lol
No excuse, sorry blue as said

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

Great topic Brian

I don't think it matters what medium you choose or how you paint or sculpt what matters is the enjoyment you get out of it !! There is so much help/advice and just about everything you could possibly need to achieve this right now. That has got to be good.

Whether you paint in oils or acrylics should be down to the individual and there preference . I do think figures have become stylised somewhat and that there is a definite look ,,,,esp to achieve something at a show,,,but that's the fault of the judges. I love what the Spanish modellers are doing just now they really are pushing boundaries but that could be because they seam to have a healthy young and importantly helpful and encouraging ethos.

As far as producing kits is concerned,,,,,Its got harder,,,,a lot harder. I can definitely say the last 12 months has been bad !!!! Like Del says its very hard to find ideas for your attention and importantly your money !!! There are a lot of people producing figures which creates a lot of choice,,,,it can be good esp that there is so much diverse product these days but its creating a nightmare and a boredom factor,,,is news exciting anymore !!!

Obviously I personally add to this problem and that's just part of the game. The 120mm market seams to have died a death !!! not helped by mega deals and it being a niche aspect of the hobby,,,for me this has been a problem but diversity is the route to survival so I have been forced to change the way I will do things in the future,,,,,these will become apparent soon. I am intrigued by these funding schemes but for me they lack a passion by the producer in some instances, especially to actually back there own product.....I may be wrong...I'm getting older too.

The future is bright and very vibrant no matter how you do it. This must be a good thing,,,,bring on Euro

Stuart

Not surprised re the 120mm market Stu ,sometimes too many unnecessary parts to the figure IE lower calf and such but probably more to do with presentation for shows as now it seems obligatory to come up with some devilish backdrop scenic display as well as just painting "nothing wrong with that" it is just more difficult on the larger scale figures as the back-scene takes a lot of space height and footprint wise, also the larger scale can get a bit close to action man stuff

For me it would always be 54mm but that is a bit small now for these old eyes that started with painting 25mm hinchcliff wargames Napoleonics
so 75mm on the slightly larger scale is for me most comfortable and if I wish to go upward then there is always busts .

Can see from a manufacturers point that it must be getting more difficult with what to come up with that is going to be viable cost wise, this is the same across the board in the hobby ,you see it at the big shows in the comps ; sculptor and painter relationships to try to win best of show, I sometimes wonder what would happen if someone presented the best most beautifully painted figure from 5 years back ,would it even get looked at as the craving for ever better new stuff is now at breakneck speed as there seems no lack of modellers with cash to splash and we are still clawing our way out of recession will it all end up like sum Super -Nova

Ps Father Jack I have left a little spelling mistake there for you to leap on

 

[Nap]

Good points raised Ron especially about figures from 5 years ago ...be interesting to see

2 spelling mistakes...Hinchcliff...should have an e on the end !...

and wrong word used ......sum should read some .........blimey how sad am I

Great thread Brian

Nap

 

[Mark S]

Hinchliffe Nap...there's an extra 'c' in there as well as the missing 'e'.......even sadder

 

[Nap]

Hinchliffe Nap...there's an extra 'c' in there as well as the missing 'e'.......even sadder

Nice one Mark ...off to put all my modelling stuff in the bin in disgust !

Oh ok then I am painting

Nap

 

[Blue Thunder]

Hi Graham!

No hard feelings! Apologies accepted.

Everyone around knows you are an extraordinary Gentleman and with a capital G! After all, we all around are on the same boat! The real crooks don't even put their feet here, and you take your precious evenings smelling the resin of just another cast to please someone far away in this beautiful planet!


We are all a small community, with a great legacy upon our shoulders: To ensure that the most artistic of all modelling areas endures in time! So, wipe out counterfeiters - that's a common goal to all here!

 

[DEL]

I sometimes wonder
Ps Father Jack I have left a little spelling mistake there for you to leap on

Obviously the above should have been I sometimes wander

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

What are you wandering about Del

 

[Graham]

What about spaces before punctuation marks? Is nobody going to mention them............... ;-)

 

[Gra30]

Just wanted to thank Blue for accepting my apology for my small rant the other night. We PMd but I hadn't realised his post here until I saw, thanks mate and truth is as said, we are all after the same goal. This community is definately something to savour and look after.
I got a very nice message from Blue, a genuine man
Best wishes
Gra

 

[Blue Thunder]

Like I told! Graham is a gentleman with a capital G!


Man, I sincerely hope you live many years releasing beauties such as this:

If I ever would wrote a book: "One hundred figures to pick before you die" unquestionably this one would figure there! Absolutely breathtaking - All I can say, is that folks not having this figure are less happier than the ones who proudly own it!


Cheers!

 

[Metal Extremo]

I think that the recast is a big problem for fabricants, but it's only a part of the state of the miniaturism. Everyone must decide if wants support the fabricants or not, it's easy and you know what it's right and wrong in this point. So it's your choice where you buy.

Taking the thread again in my opinion, we have a problem (at least in my country) with the new blood. Having a good quantity of modelist over the thirty years old, there is a lack of them under this age. A few. And i ask Why? Maybe that manual works are too laborious? You know that adquire a good level painting or sculpting is a long way. Our society is looking for inmediat results and the youngers don't understand why to walk this way? Or we use too much buttons in every task and brushes, paints, cutters, abrasives filers, putty and all these things seem very complicated? I don't know the answer, but it's the reality, in Spain. And it's a pity, cause the youngers modelist are the future of my hobbie, and are done very goods things.
More problems. Yes. We (the miniaturist) are killing the golden age of miniaturism. I think that the golden age was from eight to two years ago. In this time we had a very good comunication between us. Internet was discovered by us as an instrument to improve, share knowledgments and meet us, using the forum (like this). Now blogs and facebook are the tools more used, and forums are dying slowly. Sadly, is the reality. And is worse, cause in a forum the information is always, only must be searched. At the Facebook one information go under and is lost.
I'm agree about the quality and cuantity of new releases every month. It's very difficult choose what you buy with all these.
Sorry, muy daughter is crying. I must go. I'll continue writing later

 

[Metal Extremo]

Hi again.
As i said, we have very good things now. A lot of offer, with very good models and casts. It's a good new for art. Cause for me our hobby is a kind of art, more than "paint toys". When there are beautiful miniatures, whith dinamic positions, and a lot of complements (artificial water, snow...) and the modeler adquire a decent level, we have the most difficult and amazing possibility. To narrate something with our work. What is better. A pretty miniature very well painted, or a miniature that explain something with the scenary to the watcher. For me it's easy. The second option. It's true that it's difficult, and not always possible, but when you have some level there's a moment that this bee begins to fly into your mind, and make you see the hobbie with another perspective. It's true that when paint makes what you want, more or les, and not when you make what you can with paint is when those projects start to be done. In fact, now it's easy find these compositions at the events that are made in every country. This is cause the level of the miniaturist arround the world is medium-high. We have a lot of good and competent people in our hobby, who knows a lot technics and types of paints to obtain the best result, cause there is a support that was done by forums those years ago that allowed them to learn, and here are the compositions. For example, the last Iguazzu and Pinfli's work, it's great. All of us recognize the scene of the film. There's a fine work of transformation and modelation, and a great work of painting. Today it's usual to find a great sculptor with a great painter to obtain a superb and original scene. Not much years ago this was impossible. It's a very good evolution in the hobby.
In my opinion, i lived the best moments of the hobby few years ago, and now the good continue in three ways, but for differents reasons:
There're places like this where people speak, show and critique, allowing to improve. But it's by inertia of the nearly golden years. The trend it's facebook and blog, where everybody must say "it's great, i like it, woow" and don't write nothing to improve o adquire knowledgments.
There'are modelers that make amazing and beautiful pieces, who learned a lot of things at those golden years and now show us what can they make whith the technics dominated and all their talent. They show us that the work was well done, and change somethings. For example, now it's normal to paint a figure with brush an airbrush. The form to paint fantasy and history is the same. The saturation of colours changes, but the technics are not different. How many years ago for tell these the comunity say you fool?
We have an unending rain of new creations from the fabricants every month that made you pass a lot of time of your free time to decide what buy or not. Are fantastics. The bad thing it's that prizes are expensives than years ago. The good things... all the rest. Good cast, details, dinamism, expresions... and quantity to choose. In my country there're so many fabricants that i don't know the number. In general, have a very good attention post-sales, the sculpt is superb, and when you speak in person with them are great people. I suppos must be difficult take a place between all that competence, but here they are. Some of them have a particular form to paint the box-art, and when you see a new, you know that it's of this fabricant (Nocturna models) Others have a politic of low cost, and great quality (H&V) I remember a brand that think in the minimum number of parts at its models, cause they paint with airbrush the most parts of the miniature (Scale75)

At least, we have something big, great, and globalizated. We have all the information at one "click", and people that support us for free. Precious models to make and paint. It's better than i could imagine when i started to paint. But the dynamic today is to lose some of those things slowly. All of us must try to keep what we have, what our hobby is, and try to make it bigger. I'm proud to be a little part of it.

Regards, sorry for the long extension and for my bad english

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

Brian and all this is a very interesting thread and very topical.

Brian's original points have got many of us thinking and talking and then we have the further points that pose yet more questions.

I would say Brian firstly that whatever age you are - if you enjoy your art then don't worry about the age and just carry on enjoying - the one thing that will concern anyone as age careers on are our eyesight - I had such a great birthday present last year in a set of head worn magnifiers! But that aside age doesn't stop one being artistic and creative which model making and mostly figure making/painting enables us to do.

I would say that figure making/painting is the branch of the hobby that is the most artistic - if that is possible. I use these words cautiously because like many here I have seen models on show at Telford that have scratch built parts or indeed have been scratch built from the workbench up. But the talent that is there is in my humble opinion more engineering than art (both are way up on the talent scale) and both "disciplines" merge and converge. However a figure is sculpted and then painted. An aircraft/armored vehicle/ship etc. scratch built is usually started with a set of plans and then built in an engineers fashion. Figures are often freestyle sculpting to be made into a kit or painted to be presented. Most of us buy the figure, assemble it and then paint it. This is our art...the sculpt artist provides us with the negative to turn into the positive.

I have to agree that we are probably very much in a golden age. I can remember at BMW models near Plough Lane, Wimbledon - the Hannants of the time, having a supply of wargaming figures in white metal - precursors to the citadel's and others - Napoleonic figures at least 40 years ago. The casting was not exactly 100% but these were then state of the art...I don't have to go over the history of figure making and mentioning Tamiya's Military Miniature series as well as the Airfix Multi Pose sets and Airfix Historical figures and on and on...my first serious figure was Barton Miniatures SAS Operation Nimrod - I still have it and it still stands up for it's age and my skills back then. That was back in 1983 thereabouts - by then BMW had gone. ELS was still going in Sutton and the great Brian Morgan had painted Napoleonic figures and gave me some great information. I haven't looked back.

But I would add that I feel one section of the hobby hasn't been mentioned greatly and that is the advent of the garage kit. This section of the hobby was what gave many of us the bug and the interest. Way back in the 1960's there was a series of figures that truly took many a young person's imagination - Aurora! Often it were these figures that started the figure painter off. Frankenstein, Dracula, Wolfman, King Kong and on and on...and in the 1980's a revolution took place when garage kits emerged as well as mainstream kits. The mainstream kits included Horizon with a series of 1/6 and larger figures. Darth Vader, the Frankenstein Monster, Star Wars Storm Troopers et. al. These kits were often responsible for setting many a youngsters imagination off. When Terminator came out I desperately wanted a Terminator model figure, eventually it took a second film and investors to bring about a far superior model figure of the T-800 in half Arnie form. I still have that model. It was and is an excellent vinyl kit. Garage kits emerged and took the hobby by storm because we could get hold of figures that we were watching on the cinema screens.

But it was around this time that re casts started to emerge - especially on the worlds supermarket shelves (Harrison Ford was not the best at having his likeness put into model form and ended up left on the shelves as opposed to a Stormtrooper or Darth Vader). Re casts, and I know you are going to shoot me down in flames, have their place. From a moral and legal point of view we cannot defend the practice however what about recasting taking the place of deleted items? Your latest figure of Joe Soap in his new green suit was literally climbing the walls. with sales because of the very limited releases. And there some gargae kits that were not worth mentioning as well as some manufacturers that have become heroes - one such manufacturer was Janus.

Janus produced some of the greatest model figure kits ever. The Dracula and bride is sublime and an unmade kits will set you back quite a few quid between £500 and £1,000. Janus no longer exist - if I was that desperate I would take a recast believe me. And I would say the majority if you wanted such a figure you would probably take a recast (I got mine when the figure first came out and I have a certified example) - I am not saying I agree with recasts but when a figure is no longer made, when a kit is wanted for your shelves and some enterprising oik has the figure, never made it and had it recast and sells at an acceptable price it will sell. And those who want it badly enough will buy.

And the thought of policing such unacceptable practices is also very difficult to do. It comes down to vigilance and decency for most to recognise a recast and then avoid it and also alert others as to the genuine originality of such a model.

After the garage kit market slackened off the action figure took over and it was the vision of Todd McFarlane that realised the potential of the market with all the other manufacturers jumping on the band wagon very quickly. If you wanted Samuel Jackson you could get him as Shaft on a ten inch figure. Garage kits and figures as a whole had a hiccup at that time.

Verlinden, Shep Paine and many more kick started the popularity of figures after Historex dominated with their multipose/multi accessory series of Napoleonic figures. One good way to measure the figure market is to look at the history of Andrea - their 30th anniversary book gives a history that I bet most of us here can relate to and we can see the evolution of figures in those past 30 years.

I have to agree with others that we are in a golden age right now. Here on Planet Figure there isn't a week that goes by without on average five new releases a week being announced. This is no bad thing - except that we are spoiled for choice or have to have very full bank accounts to keep up with the great items being released. It is the choice that so amazes me and it is now that I would say most of us have very full stashes for once these kits/figures have gone there is little chance of picking up in the after market section. Until of course some bright spark sets about recasting that one figure ten years down the line because there is a market for the subject. Or if you are lucky the original is re released by someone who has bought the original moulds.

I totally disagree with recasts - but market demand will always be there for those unscrupulous and sometimes unsuspecting that want x, y and z and because the original is not available a recast will do. If you wanted the Janus Dracula and his bride would you pay nearly £1000 for the kit or would you spend £150 for a recast? With today's technological techniques and advances and materials the kit/model will look the same apart from maybe a cast seam and plug that would have to be dealt with. I would say that cost being a consideration the recast would be extremely attractive. Thankfully in the lesser scales and more military subjects there is less re casting done - that being said - vigilance by the manufacturer has to be paramount to combat the piracy of their goods - but if the company is out of production does it matter? You will have your answers, I certainly have an opinion on this subject.

As for the way the hobby is going - well there will always be several schools of modelling and model making and painting. I am not a fan of acrylics for flesh tones, I prefer a mix of oils and enamels. For material and uniform acrylics offer a nice texture. As for airbrushing I think the bigger the scale the more demanding the use of airbrush. Mixing up an oil/enamel flesh for 1:1 scale busts feels like gallonage and not just a jar! I think ultimately techniques are being developed all the time - and one of the best aspects that has been mentioned is that modellers are willing to share their innovations and talk those of us who are lesser mortals, through such techniques. The internet has bred such communities and made the world a smaller place.

One aspect I would point out and would also ask for opinions - competitions namely Euro - I feel need a slight overhaul. I feel that the nationals need to have a new class - advance. Many of the winners now at Euro are professional artists and figure painters. Should such a talent enter a competition and win say twice over an amount of time then that person should automatically be bumped into the advance class. This I feel would give the more amateur and hobbyist in the community a sense of chance in the big competition - I say this because some of the modellers who are good enough to enter such competitions are disheartened because a professional has entered and is bound to win. Would it be so bad to have an advance section that would garner awards but would be between such godlike talents with the more mortal like modellers in a position to win the amateur trophies (if won twice then automatically they are bumped into the advance class). Much like Golf in way (handicaps enable amateurs to play against professionals).

As for where this hobby will go and progress - we have to look at the possible uses of 3D printers for one avenue - it will not be long that we are running off figures at home - one offs of our family or of that elusive historical figure - all without having a sculpted master. Or indeed it will be the choice of faces put onto a figure. Can you imagine a figure of a T800 with your own face instead of Arnie's?

We are in a golden age of this hobby and it is a pleasure but figure making is a tiny part of model making - aircraft are the big brother that covers probably 90% of model sales - and we are in a golden age with such releases as well. This can only be good. My question would be for how long? For there is not much new blood coming into the hobby.

Fantasy has done great things for youngsters to enjoy the hobby - Games Workshop has a lot to do with this (I feel that they are often overpriced but kids imaginations are fired) the releases and figures that they have produced has enabled the younger generations to make models and thus graduate onto other subjects. When my club had a stand at Duxford last year I exhibited a few items including a 1:1 Scale Curse of the Werewolf - the younger members of the attendees were photographing that more than anything else because dad had dragged them along to look at the boring things dad likes - but hey werewolves wow!

Where will the hobby go? Hard to say but it is still bouyant and I would say take advantage while it is rolling on the crest of a wave.