The state of the hobby?

[Ferris]

Interesting point Metal Extremo; that Facebook and blogs are taking over from forums. I hope not though, because I have neither!

I agree with you that 'backslapping comments' (woow, great work, etc.) are nice but not helping in the learning process. Maybe here at PF we should indeed be giving more constructive feedback. It is telling that even the 'Brutal Honesty' part of PF hardly criticises anymore. Maybe we should try to add a bit of criticism; it can be done in a nice way, and will be helpful. I really hope this helps the forums to survive, as I learned a lot from it.

Cheers,
Adrian

 

[ChaosCossack]

Good point Adrian, I for one post my progress pics hoping that a fresh set of eyes will be able to see something that can be improved or tweeked before I move on to the next step. Words of encouragement are great and keep the ball rolling but improvement comes from CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Don't just tell me "it looks like crap" tell me how I can fix it.

I have found, that since joining this forum and meeting some local painters though it, my painting has improved tenfold compared to when I painted "in a vacuum".

Vive le Planet!!!

Colin

 

[kagemusha]

I believe that a lot of members avoid commenting/criticising the work of fellow members, simply because they are of the opinion that they are not as good as the person asking for criticism/tips.
There are a lot of very talented painters and sculptors on PF.
This in itself can put people off commenting, other than to give the usual well done's etc.
Truth is, even the top guys still want to improve or, get a genuine fresh perspective on their work.
A vicious circle.

 

[billyturnip]

Personally I see making critique semi compulsory having a negative effect. Not everyone is comfortable or perhaps experienced enough to give it and then there are potential language difficulties to consider.
Leave well alone I say if someone wants to say a figure is "Great, good work" that is for them to decide. There are still plenty of people on here who can and do offer good advice and critique to those that ask for it. A gentle reminder about what the Brutal Honesty sub forum is for is probably enough.

Roger.

 

[Blind Pew]

Being really critical without upsetting or pissing people off just using a keyboard is really difficult to do. A skill not many have!

Far easier in person, if that makes sense.

 

[ChaosCossack]

Roger, I certainly didn't mean to say critiques should be mandatory by any stretch... just that I have found helpful comments and suggestions to be a boon to my own improvement. The encouraging "atta boy" helps as well for sure. You yourself have given me tons of tips and hints in the past... and not once did you hurt my feelings Absolutely, nobody wants to post their work only to have it flogged.

I guess, I didn't get my point across... what I was trying to get across was that forums (for me, this one) are a great way for modellers from all over the world to gather and exchange ideas, show their work and ultimately, learn from each other. This wasn't possible before.

Cheers

Colin

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

No one really likes to be criticised at work or any other place ,it is difficult not to offend , I don't look much on brutal honesty these days as I have aired my thoughts on a couple of occasions and upset people .
But there is a lot of comments on the WIP section where modellers say this is fantastic when it is clearly not so and not always the rank and file members stuff , even the top guys paint the odd moga " thats an Ayrshire word used by my country buddies to say it is shit" the rank and file is the backbone of the forum , the top guns very rarely criticise anyone or post comments and tend to show on PP but I see allocades poured out here also .

This is still the best model forum there is , most don't take themselves to serious re the modelling ; thats for another dark corner I have learned a great deal on here by asking and at times just looking , and always grateful when small snippets of information are passed down (and it has improved my Grammar) and treat every day here as a school day .

The ravings of Ron . Vive le planet

Ps Perhaps more contributions to the painting and sculpting sections would be a good move and some postings of museum visits would be nice .

 

[tonydawe]

The operative word when it comes to criticism is "constructive", a point Colin made earlier.

It is possible to be both "brutally honest" and also "constructive" without hurting people's feelings.

My rule is "If you can't say anything constructive, don't say anything at all".

My painting has improved as a result of receiving constructive criticism from pF members, and the more I get the more I want.

I don't mind getting the pat on the back either, it helps give the ego a boost, however it has no real value unless its earned and deserved.

The thing I value most is when someone says "Good start mate, but I'm not sure that left eye is exactly level with the right" or "have you considered trying a different technique such as ......." or "if you want to get rid of the gloss on the pants add some Tamiya x-21....."

I think we all find it easy to spot mistakes, but sometimes its just easier to give an "atta boy" than take the time to say "it's good, but it could be better if you .....".

The best comments on this forum aren't always from the best painters and sculptors. Those people who willingly try to help others by passing on their knowledge and experience in a helpful, friendly and constructive way are the people who make this forum the place it is.

 

[Adrian Cowdry]

I can see the points of view about critique - especially for the novices but also those of us who have not practiced a technique or particular way and when we do it is the valued opinion of those who have practiced such methods that we seek and if there is a point to be made then it is of value.

But putting into words on a forum or e mail is very tough and requires skills that are often only held by those trained in the use of English. Often on such a forum or public place the emphasis can be misread and feelings can be hurt ego's dented. I would say that if we value opinions and seek then sometimes you may have to look beyond a comment.

I would say though that those who practice new, different, old with a new twist techniques and methods if possible should pass on their knowledge to an ever expanding group - a knowledge pool is such a valuable asset for such a hobby with wide ranging subjects.

 

[billyturnip]

Roger, I certainly didn't mean to say critiques should be mandatory by any stretch... just that I have found helpful comments and suggestions to be a boon to my own improvement. The encouraging "atta boy" helps as well for sure. You yourself have given me tons of tips and hints in the past... and not once did you hurt my feelings Absolutely, nobody wants to post their work only to have it flogged.

I guess, I didn't get my point across... what I was trying to get across was that forums (for me, this one) are a great way for modellers from all over the world to gather and exchange ideas, show their work and ultimately, learn from each other. This wasn't possible before.

Cheers

Colin

Colin, my comments were not directed at you or anyone else in particular. I have also received lots of sound advice and greatly appreciate the time people have taken to help me out.
The point I was making is that if someone is only really comfortable giving a "Well done, goodwork." we shouldn't be discouraging them otherwise there might be only a few of us left here.

Roger.

 

[brian]

I quote-" the top guns very rarely criticise anyone or post comments ".This was taken from a post ,as i thought ,from a friend of mine.Just goes to show you can never tell yer mates real feelings.
Just don't expect me to talk to you Ron, as i'm in the huff.
By the way, yer granmar is krap and so's yer speling
Brian

 

[Mark S]

Well I've found all the previous comment very interesting, regardless of the fact that for a long time now I've reached a particular level of expertise which makes any criticism or helpful comment worthless to me,....even so I don't mind it when well meaning amateurs make some futile suggestions.
I get a good felling by simply letting them see some work from someone who has achieved the pinnacle of our hobby, because it's probably just something they could only dream of otherwise.......so I feel I'm doing a lot of good for the benefit of others who may be inadequate.........I like that.


Seriously though,......Jiminy Crickets!!.... The day someone thinks that an encouraging word is of no benefit to anyone is a sad day indeed.
And who is to determine what level of expertise anyone else should attain or is happy to attain anyway?

Not everyone wants to make the front page of Naked Modeller Monthly, even if one believes one deserves to be there for one reason or another.
I'm quite happy being average and get much pleasure from producing average pieces and have no ambition to achieve anything other.
That may seem strange to some but I'm ok with it.
I'd rather enjoy what I do,regardless of it's 'worth' than do something to a higher level with an audience in mind.
Anyone painting with an audience in mind can never really enjoy what they do.

Those who want to learn can easily learn all they can here at pF.......and learn nothing from the forums which are so called critical.
Everyone can take from or contribute to this forum as much or as little as they like.........fine by me.

 

[Colin_Fraser]

I think it would be nice if modellers posting their work took a second and explain how or why they did something new, without being asked. That provides a primer for further thought or discussion. Every figure has some experiment in it somewhere, be it colour, tools, media, groundwork etc. Tell us a bit more about why and how you did something, especially if you weren't sure.

Colin

 

[brian]

Hi Mark
I bet you've got a big wooden spoon hanging on a wall in your house mate.
What part of NSW do you come from, as i spent 7 years at the RAAF base in Richmond after i was posted from Wagga.I've been up with the "banana benders and spent a bit of time with the "crows"
These were the days.I'm glad i stole that loaf of bread Mark.Back in Scotland now but your Aussie humour is still in me.
Brian

 

[Mark S]

Brian, I hope you enjoyed that loaf and the penalty. I live so bloody close the the end of the RAAF bombing range at Williamtown NSW that the chooks lay cracked eggs and one of my kidney stones passed without notice.

 

[tonydawe]

One magazine I never want to subscribe to - Naked Modeller Monthly.

 

[Mark S]

Tony, I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly, apparently the November 2012 issue featuring Jamie Stokes and his small scale pieces is a keenly sort after issue.

 

[ChaosCossack]

Colin, my comments were not directed at you or anyone else in particular. I have also received lots of sound advice and greatly appreciate the time people have taken to help me out.
The point I was making is that if someone is only really comfortable giving a "Well done, goodwork." we shouldn't be discouraging them otherwise there might be only a few of us left here.

Roger.

I agree completely... no one should be discouraged from any kind of constructive input. That's what makes this forum so great... and why I keep coming back.

Cheers Roger

Colin

 

[Metal Extremo]

Interesting point Metal Extremo; that Facebook and blogs are taking over from forums. I hope not though, because I have neither!

I agree with you that 'backslapping comments' (woow, great work, etc.) are nice but not helping in the learning process. Maybe here at PF we should indeed be giving more constructive feedback. It is telling that even the 'Brutal Honesty' part of PF hardly criticises anymore. Maybe we should try to add a bit of criticism; it can be done in a nice way, and will be helpful. I really hope this helps the forums to survive, as I learned a lot from it.

Cheers,
Adrian

I'm with you Adrian, cause i don't have and don't want neither too.

I'm in PF for a short time, and can not opine if the comments are "honest" or not. Here there is a lot of people, and is not the same give an opinion to a "new painter" or to a "veteran painter". People with years here knows the level of much people, and speedy can "take the pulse" to the news members. I hope take the pulse to you, and then be a useful member.
For my experience, the most productive is to follow two or three works of a new member, to meet his work and level and willingness to learn, and then try to help to improve with the comments. Of course, with respect. All we know the hours and dedication needed, and "this is shit", or "what crap" are not cristicism. Respect is the first. I had a period of time where my painting level was stopped, and people who wrote in my threads allow me go up. Obviously, the advices can be applicated or not, is not an obligation do them, and it's not an obligation give them.
Too, someone said that members don't give opinions cause don't have the level of the member to be comment. That's not a problem in my opinión. I'm not a writter and when i read a book i have my opinion. And the same with a film. A lot of eyes watch more than two.
Idiom can be a problem? Yes, it is. It's rough, at least to me to read and write in english, but i have interest and do it. I don't follow all the threads, it's heavy and need spend a lot of time, but i hope, with time, to follow more number of threads.

 

[Helm]

I stick mine up warts and all, I like the looks good etc but also like the you need to do this.. as much if not more than the well dones. It shos people are taking an interest in my stuff and also want it to get better, I've improved immensely and the credit goes to those who are much better than me helping out no end. I can't comment on the golden age thing really as not long back after a 30 year time out, the kits are a lot better in many cases but the paints not so much
Steve