The state of the hobby?

[Ron Tamburrini]

Mark
Crusaders sell more than any other figure ,why I wonder ! is it they are easy to paint which they are not ,all that white they were the losers eventually as with the other popular figures but sell they do ,most easy recognisable stuff has now been done so we could see our selfs getting bombarded with a back catalogue when
the 3d printing gets itself really sorted ,just like the music industry does with every leap forward in technology .
If that happens I will blame you Diggers as you lot started it with that bloody soap Neighbours ; re-running the same story line with new actors 'mind you actors is a bit strong"

 

[tonydawe]

Great thread Brian,

I've been a modeller for 44 years and plan to be one for as long as I can. Next to my family and my football club, it's my greatest passion.
Growing up as a figure modeller in Australia has been a relatively lonely journey. There aren't that many of us here and we are so dispersed across this big land of ours that I've had few opportunities to meet fellow figure modellers and even less opportunities to see their work and learn from them. The few people I have met who share my passion for figure modelling have become some of my best and closest friends, even if I don't see them very often.

For me the greatest evolution/ revolution in our hobby has been the internet, and specifically Planet Figure. Before I joined pF I was a frustrated oils painter and not a very good one. I'd been painting figures for many years, starting with Humbrol enamels and then switching to oils in the late 1980's, but I didn't like most of the pieces I'd produced. I loved my figures but I struggled for years to see any real progression in my painting. I didn't feel as if I was ever going to realise my potential as a painter, and do justice to the quality of the sculpts that I was painting.

That changed for me when I discovered Planet Figure back in 2007 and started to regularly participate in the forums and seek and receive advice from fellow Planeteers. Around that time I decided to switch from oils to acrylics, and then at the urging of one of my mentors Phil Walden, to adopt the oils over acrylics painting technique. The combination of these two events have transformed me as a painter, and injected new passion and enjoyment in my hobby for me.

My VBench represents the arc of my journey as a figure modeller. It shows where I started and the steps along the way that I've taken to get to where I am today. My involvement on Planet Figure has opened my eyes to the broader global figure modelling community and helped me feel part of a much larger scene. I agree that we are enjoying a Golden Age, and I hope it continues for many years to come.

We are spoilt for choice. Quality sculptors and casters are churning out so many figures and busts that I can't keep up. Brushes and paints have also evolved along with a multitude of special effects products, powders, pigments, water resins etc.

Yes, the hobby is relatively expensive. Thank god I have a good job and can afford to indulge myself in my hobby. That wasn't always the case, so I certainly don't take my good fortune for granted.

I make a habit of welcoming every new member of Planet Figure when they join the forum, because I feel an obligation to return something to the forum that has made such a big difference to my enjoyment in this hobby, and to help newbies feel as welcomed as I did when I first joined. I can remember how intimidating it was coming onto this forum knowing that some of my modelling heroes were regulars here, and inviting them to comment of my modest and rather pathetic efforts. This forum and you guys are the reason I'm still doing this hobby after 44 years, and why I'm enjoying it more than ever.

My report on the "state of the hobby" - sensational and getting better every day.

 

[blaster]

Very interesting comments from all of you.

I see digital 3D printing coming into dominance. Whether it brings the price down or not, the moulding material used will change radically. Eventually figures will be produced fully colourised. The quality of historical documentation will go the way of Warcraft and Game of Thrones.

Rgds Victor

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

Very interesting comments from all of you.

I see digital 3D printing coming into dominance. Whether it brings the price down or not, the moulding material used will change radically. Eventually figures will be produced fully colourised. The quality of historical documentation will go the way of Warcraft and Game of Thrones.

Rgds Victor

pre coloured figures heaven forbid ; there would be no point to painting anymore

 

[Nap]

Hi Brian ,

Nice thread mate ..for me of course the hobby has progressed ...beyond all expectations if I am honest.

Trends happen...certain things I'll always sell, technics are forever evolving (Spanish painters for example) hitch influences others to evolve.

Technology has opened up the hobby so much more , the internet is something we all now use .....forums have come and gone some stand the test of time ie PF and is used as a tool by modellers .

We are also blessed by a tremendous increase in quality and variety of subjects use to technology in casting and increased skills in sculpting and casting

The way shows are handled has also changed for the better , the image of a lone modeller sat on his on in a room has I think virtually gone , but the sheer nature of the hobby mean's most do paint alone .

The state of the hobby: better now than it's ever been and getting better each day IMO.

Nap

 

[DEL]

Being a mate of Brians I've debated this with him a number of times. To clarify, if needed, what he was doing was illustrating where he sits within the broad spectrum of the hobby.
Having developed his technique over the years he has established a reputation as an excellent painter in his preferred medium of oils. Like most of us he has tried a number of mediums and techniques and refined the one that suits him best and provides the satisfaction we all seek from any hobby we develop.
That being said, in our debates the subject of the use of airbrushes regularly comes up. We are awestruck by the ability of many of the artists using this method and the range of styles are every bit as varied as in oils, acrylics and enamels. So these are in no way an anti airbrushing debates it's just not for us.
For me, and this is a personal view, I've tried airbrushing and find it ok for for some things but find it disengages me from the painting of a figure. I like to immerse myself in information surrounding whatever subject I'm painting using books, films and critically the internet.
This is where the 'slowness' of oils suit me particularly well as I like to paint as I develop knowledge on a subject. It was an interest in historical literature that engaged my interest in modelling.
As has been said this is a real purple patch for modellers, we've never had it so good. This of course brings it's challenges to the commissioning manufacturers. With so many excellent firms all using top sculptors it must be quite a risk to invest in development when you are in such a competitive market where purchasers have such a wide choice.
One of the biggest challenges I feel is for judges in major competitions who have to judge across a variety of techniques in a single category but that's a debate for another day.
Finally, and this is a matter of personal taste, recently there has been an increase in the number of airbrushed busts appearing. All beautifully painted but to my old eyes there is something lacking, they just don't get an reaction from me, call it 'soul' if you like they just seem sterile. In fact to me some look like Lladro porcelain.
Cheers
Derek

 

[Blue Thunder]

Allow me just to input my 2 cents regarding 3d printed models

First - They came to stay! Now their corner is quite short like Digital Mavica corner was in the mid 90's. Now film is long gone ...

Second - In long term they will eat all this market when it comes to production: It's a process strongly similar to the industrial revolution when it occur in the XIX century.

Third - traditional sculpting (this means how originals are made and not how pieces are duplicated) will ever be an option of choice. In case you wonder why and how, I invite you to see the video from Linkin Park and Steve Aoki "a light that never comes" and you will extrapolate a third option brands have right now as a choice: Live models - a tech currently in use to replicate famous players ... or just a guy that wants a statuette of himself.

Forth - pre-colored printed figures exist. But the pleasure of this market is painting. However war gaming guys and collectors will embrace 3d printed military teams in short term: Here's a great opportunity to pick money!

Fifth - As Bob mentioned yesterday - from a blueprint to a machined component there's a universe between them. So the same applies to 3d prints: Currently, the machine, and most specifically, the tech it uses, really makes all the difference. However in two parameters: Quality and Price - and the curve is exponential - you want quality you pay a heck of a price. You can't afford quality - you take garbage home. Pretty easy!

Sixth - Pirates will only have an opportunity against 3d printed originals if they have the model digital file. So - protect your digital models and never email them to no one you don't know you can trust.

Seven - 3d sculpt is no easy job - generating sharp models that will generate sharp and competitive prints is something hard to achieve in a profitable way in a market so small as this one.


Believe me - They came to stay! And things are just beginning

 

[denstore]

Even if I'm somewhat of an airbrush fanatic, i really can't see the reason for using it for everything. Normal brushes will always have their benefits.
About the piracy and 3D-printing as potential dangers to the hobby, I feel that they are greatly exaggerated.

 

[Mark S]

Well, as far as the state of this hobby and piracy goes I reckon the cheap recasting of figures been the greatest thing to happen to figure painting in years, I can now afford to buy and paint many pieces which I previously thought were way out of my price range but which are now at realistic affordable prices.
Is what I'd say if I had no interest in the long term survival of the many new innovative figure companies in the market these days.
The ever present cheap recast is something that genuine hobbyists will have to continue to recognise and discourage.

 

[Blue Thunder]

Heck! So much interest in this theme

I just received so many private messages, so quickly, I'l better leave here the link for the song I mentioned:

Watch this song, and then look after second 3.51 how things are heading nowadays:



Then you choose Print, spin, plot, rotate, add, subtract, blend, delete, erase, modify, .... the possibilities are endless

 

[stu]

Great topic Brian

I don't think it matters what medium you choose or how you paint or sculpt what matters is the enjoyment you get out of it !! There is so much help/advice and just about everything you could possibly need to achieve this right now. That has got to be good.

Whether you paint in oils or acrylics should be down to the individual and there preference . I do think figures have become stylised somewhat and that there is a definite look ,,,,esp to achieve something at a show,,,but that's the fault of the judges. I love what the Spanish modellers are doing just now they really are pushing boundaries but that could be because they seam to have a healthy young and importantly helpful and encouraging ethos.

As far as producing kits is concerned,,,,,Its got harder,,,,a lot harder. I can definitely say the last 12 months has been bad !!!! Like Del says its very hard to find ideas for your attention and importantly your money !!! There are a lot of people producing figures which creates a lot of choice,,,,it can be good esp that there is so much diverse product these days but its creating a nightmare and a boredom factor,,,is news exciting anymore !!!

Obviously I personally add to this problem and that's just part of the game. The 120mm market seams to have died a death !!! not helped by mega deals and it being a niche aspect of the hobby,,,for me this has been a problem but diversity is the route to survival so I have been forced to change the way I will do things in the future,,,,,these will become apparent soon. I am intrigued by these funding schemes but for me they lack a passion by the producer in some instances, especially to actually back there own product.....I may be wrong...I'm getting older too.

The future is bright and very vibrant no matter how you do it. This must be a good thing,,,,bring on Euro

Stuart

 

[Blue Thunder]

Well, as far as the state of this hobby and piracy goes I reckon the cheap recasting of figures been the greatest thing to happen to figure painting in years, I can now afford to buy and paint many pieces which I previously thought were way out of my price range but which are now at realistic affordable prices.

I have to say Marc, this has to be the most controversial sentence I have ever read here on Planet Figure - and it sums pretty well what piracy is:

To the counterfeiter and to the consumer - an opportunity. The other side of the coin is the creator - and to him it is interest loss ... or worst - bankruptcy.


It happened before in other activities, it will happen in this one too: Under equal circumstances, and as weird as it can be to some, pirates will increase their market share and legitimate owners will see their market go away. That is why I see this as a real threat to the mercantile economy of the hobby.

 

[Gra30]

I have to say Marc, this has to be the most controversial sentence I have ever read here on Planet Figure - and it sums pretty well what piracy is:

To the counterfeiter and to the consumer - an opportunity. The other side of the coin is the creator - and to him it is interest loss ... or worst - bankruptcy.


It happened before in other activities, it will happen in this one too: Under equal circumstances, and as weird as it can be to some, pirates will increase their market share and legitimate owners will see their market go away. That is why I see this as a real threat to the mercantile economy of the hobby.

Great thread,
I have yet to see a piracy company offer the after sales service though, replacement parts and to the same high quality.
They also rely on the initial piece and digital won't be safe as it is the finished piece they will copy not the file.
As said though, you only get the same service from correct manufacturers and only the integrity of the true hobbyists can help stamp it out. Generally this community is so small any wind of piracy goes through the circles like a dose of salts. In general small manufacturers rely on their loyal customer base the majority of the time anyway, certainly to some percentage of sales and these are loyal customers through and through. They buy consistently from the manufacturers for the reasons I mention.

 

[Blue Thunder]

Spot on Graham!

It is really weird what people are willing to pay for a counterfeit. I placed this link previously here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-10-Roman-...8754?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item4d2004ab82

And it says just about everything! I purchased myself cheaper Young busts here on Planet Figure and there was one last week for sale here for 35$.


If counterfeiters have visibility and distribution .... bye bye creators!

 

[Ferris]

It happened before in other activities, it will happen in this one too: Under equal circumstances, and as weird as it can be to some, pirates will increase their market share and legitimate owners will see their market go away. That is why I see this as a real threat to the mercantile economy of the hobby.

If counterfeiters have visibility and distribution .... bye bye creators!

Blue Thunder I think you are being too black and white about piracy. I think you are right in stating that the internet has given recasters better chances as well, but the the fact that their offer is (usually) cheaper than the real product will inevitably lead to the demise of the original/creator is too black and white and pessimistic.

First, in making the decision to buy, as a consumer, we do not only look at price. As Gra30 pointed out, after sales service that can be expected is one thing. Overall realiability of the seller a highly significant additional point. Are you going to entrust your credit card details to someone copying other people's stuff? Will the wares actually be delivered at all? Buyers consider much more than just price and original manufacturors are in the advantage.

Then there is quality, look and feel. Most of us want good stuff, in nice boxes. That's not usually what you get with pirates. You do not get exactly the same product.

Thirdly, the notion of consumers making purely rational decisions is outdated economics. Most people don't want to buy fakes.

In addition, piracy has been going on for years. Nevertheless, we see more and better products than ever before. The creators are not falling down, on the contrary. Stu, a manufacturor/creator points out above that the market is tough, but he doesn't primarily refer to piracy.

Finally, there has to be something to copy. If the creator does not consider the investment in creating wise, the pirate will have nothing to copy. Pirates can never 'win'. They are parasites, siphoning off part of the creator's profit, but without the ability to create, they will never capture the whole market.

So I'm less pessimistic about piracy. It sucks allright, but it's more like the common cold than ebola in my view.

Cheers,
Adrian

 

[bonehead]

Okay, back to the beginning! My prior comments were mostly in response to what Brain had said in his initial post.

So, to get to the topic at hand: The state of the art on this hobby has never been better. As others have pointed out technology and techniques have evolved over time - and all for the best for the most part. I have previously mentioned that I do question current fashions in painting which emphasize extreme contrast, thus elevating what I feel is extreme over-painting to the percieved "pinnacle" of the art.

As with all fashions, this one is only temporary and hopefully will be replaced by something less offensive to my personal sensibilities. If not, then my personal tastes shall only fall ever-further out of favor. C'est la vie!

I AM intrigued by digital sculpting. This seems like a new tool which could, potentially be at the forefront of a revolution in sculpting. But, to be honest, I have yet to see any digital sculpts here that knocked my socks off. But I hold no illusions that genius in digital form will show up sooner or later under the guise of pairing the right talent with the technology. I would love to take it up, if only I can get off the treadmill my analog work has created - where I have no "extra" time to do things other than sculpt masters in order to pay the bills and keep the ever ravening wolves from my door.

Hi
Airbrushing is one aspect of the hobby that ,although very good, doesn't sit well with me .I have no qualms about using it as an aid, but when you can watch on You Tube a horse being almost totally painted with an airbrush, except maybe the eyes and the hoofs for example,and figures especially busts that i've seen, being painted much the same way doesn't turn me on i'm afraid . I quote Mike Good
- "To my mind, the only thing that counts is the final result. If I can find easier ways to achieve an end result, then that is working smart - not cheating! "
By saying this, Mike more or less states, that it's easier to airbrush.In Mikes defence to be fair, as he was, and still is a commercial painter, where easier and obviously speedier methods would be a boon.
I much prefer to sit on my own,taking as much time as i want to paint a figure,as to me,that's part of the enjoyment.
Brian

Sorry Brian, I have to respond here as, this last statement of yours simply is not true! To call me a "commercial painter" is completely out of touch with reality. For one thing, I can count all the figures I have painted in this current century on one hand - and still have fingers left over! For another, I cannot remember the last time I sold a painted figure. It certainly was sometime in the last century. How such a meager and completely unpatronized output can qualify as "commercial" is beyond me.

As stated above, I get little time to paint these days. And when I do, I must force myself to sit down and do it. And then, I inevitably have to put the poor pitiful thing away (i get so little practice that I am perpetually "rusty" - not to mention I am still coming to terms with an entirely new - to me - paint medium) in order to pump out another sculpted master so I can pay the rent. That hardly qualifies me as a painter, much less a "professional" one that actually gets paid for their efforts. If the response to my measly output at the last two shows is any indication, my days as a "collectible" painter are already numbered.

But, to answer Brian's comments about airbrushing figures, two things need to be kept in mind:

1.) My airbrushing technique is more like "point and shoot" than any highly finessed "art" technique. I developed it more as a way to speed up the process of painting large scale figures. I found this necessary because my normal brush painting techniques were so slow that I found it difficult to finish them at all - I would lose interest in the project long before I could call it done. I could never have painted any 1/6th or 1/9th scale figures without the airbrush helping to push the work along. Even 120mm figures take too long for me to do by hand.

2.) As such, my airbrush technique falls squarely into the category of "working smart", rather than toward any incorrectly perceived "commercial" motive. As I said previously, some of us prefer to make our life easier if there are obvious ways to do that. I have little interest in being an artistic "purist" if the end result is no better and it makes things more difficult in the long run. I will leave the voluntary hair-shirting to others - as I always have......

This dinosaur still has a lot to learn. And I will, no doubt, remain interested in this hobby as long that is true.

Happy modeling!

Mike

 

[brian]

Hi Mike
Let me start by mentioning my faux pas, regarding you being a commercial painter.What i meant to say was commercial sculptor. The point i was trying to make was that somebody in your position ,who makes a living out of this hobby of ours,would use an airbrush for the sake of speeding things up.Times,money,so they say.So i stand corrected .
But i'm still of the opinion that in competition, the total airbrush busts, and to a lesser extent figures, should be put in a separate category or you would need very knowledgeable judges.
I get invited every year to judge at Euro, but i always decline, as personnaly i would find it extremely difficult to be fair minded to all the different styles that are about.So for that reason i don't judge.Come to think of it, having more time having a beverage, and buying figures is another wee bonus.
Anyway this dinosaur has said enough,so i'm away to put my hair shirt on and spend a bit of time flagellating myself.I'm just a martyr to this great hobby of ours.
Brian

 

[Blue Thunder]

Blue Thunder I think you are being too black and white about piracy. I think you are right in stating that the internet has given recasters better chances as well, but the the fact that their offer is (usually) cheaper than the real product will inevitably lead to the demise of the original/creator is too black and white and pessimistic.

First, in making the decision to buy, as a consumer, we do not only look at price. As Gra30 pointed out, after sales service that can be expected is one thing. Overall realiability of the seller a highly significant additional point. Are you going to entrust your credit card details to someone copying other people's stuff? Will the wares actually be delivered at all? Buyers consider much more than just price and original manufacturors are in the advantage.

Then there is quality, look and feel. Most of us want good stuff, in nice boxes. That's not usually what you get with pirates. You do not get exactly the same product.

Thirdly, the notion of consumers making purely rational decisions is outdated economics. Most people don't want to buy fakes.

In addition, piracy has been going on for years. Nevertheless, we see more and better products than ever before. The creators are not falling down, on the contrary. Stu, a manufacturor/creator points out above that the market is tough, but he doesn't primarily refer to piracy.

Finally, there has to be something to copy. If the creator does not consider the investment in creating wise, the pirate will have nothing to copy. Pirates can never 'win'. They are parasites, siphoning off part of the creator's profit, but without the ability to create, they will never capture the whole market.

So I'm less pessimistic about piracy. It sucks allright, but it's more like the common cold than ebola in my view.

Cheers,
Adrian

My friend, don't shoot a messenger, shoot events!


Your arguments are common hearing: "recasters are low on quality, don't give your cc to recasters, they don't do after sales... yadda yadda yadda ... and so on and so on and so on" there are tons of pages here with this same symphony. Even before the web the arguments were exactly these!

Wake! It's distribution and visibility! A counterfeiter using eBay platform means eBay is protecting financial data from buyers and giving them buyers protection. If people dislike - people leave negative feedback. And all I see here are praises and sales:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller


I want originals and innovative products from innovative brands crafted from the best artists this worlds knows.


Unfortunately just three months after the release of the highly praised Knight at Jerusalem comes a knock off:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-9-resin-k...9238?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item4d2004d476


And the legitimate miniature remains unsold:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nutsplanet-...es_ModelKits_ModelKits_JN&hash=item2a3e4f21a2


THIS IS THE PROBLEM!

and the problem, like all problems, is just beginning.


If the money was mine, would I pay a sculptor to craft a novelty knowing I would face this risk? The answer is no! Because experience is on my side. So if experience is not on the side of these exceptional entrepreneurials they will learn the painful way what will come next: Raise in inventory, lower in cash.


Ferris you and I are on common ground about fakes. The difference is that I'm trying to alert what will happen in about two years to these great names ... and not what is happening today!

Screens don't help to properly pass a message. I.D. this trend - try to see in a name such as Young the number of novelties per year: 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 ...

 

[denstore]

Piracy is a problem, most of us are aware of that. But which way is the best to counter it? There are quite obvious that laws alone won't stop it. And as someone pointed out, it isn't exactly something new. It's been around as long as I've been into the hobby. Difference was that 25-30 years ago, you wasn't sure if it was a copy or not. And usually you had paid about the same price as the original would have costed.
How much of the cost of figures today are in packaging? And how much more expensive is white metal than resin? Because I know that if I could choose between resin and white metal, I would chose resin every day. And if I could buy a cheaper edition, in a standard box, I would probably do so, quite often.

About putting airbrushed figures in a separate class, I really can't see the logic or any gain from it. The airbrush is a tool, something that needs to be learned and mastered, just like normal brushes. It's not easier. It's just better at making shading, colour transisions and achieving a smooth surface. On the other hand brushes are better for detail, sharp lines and keeping within small areas. There are things you can achieve with airbrushes that are hard to do with brushes, and vice versa.
And how would you execute the judging? If someone had to few brush strokes, you would disqualify him for cheating with an airbrush? I've already seen these discussions on judging scale models back in the late 90's, when some people thought airbrushing was cheating, and airbrushed models should get lower points, because it was "easier" and "less work put into the model".

 

[ChaosCossack]

I'd like to weigh in on the subject of stylistic trends in the hobby.
It's been mentioned already but it's something that puts a wild hair across my ass! The current trend of hyper highlighting is one I'm not a huge fan of. Not that there's anything wrong with it but it seems like if you don't buy into it, then you are wrong. In some cases, it looks fine but in others, I find the results almost cartoonish. What I find is when everyone paints in the same style, individuality is lost. You should be able to pick out a painter's work by his style,for instance, Colin F has a distinct style in the way he sculpts and paints his busts... recognizable right away. To say that it's wrong for not following the formula of the latest trend is crazy!
If competition judges are looking at whether or not you are adhering to this formula then they're not judging the model as a piece on it's own merit, then the judging is based on who executes that one particular style/technique the best. That essentially forces everyone to paint the same.

NFG!!!

Learning a new technique and incorporating it into your style is great, that's how the hobby progresses, but when the new style becomes "law", I believe the hobby stagnates.

That's my 2 cents worth of nothing.

Colin