Ebay Recasts

[alamac]

Firstly, I in NO WAY condone buying pirated figures, everyone must make a conscience call on this subject.
Jason refers to a heated screaming session with another figure modeller about recasts, the meeting was held in my home ,( i didn't hear any raised voices at any stage of the evening ) and I am EXTREMELEY offended that he has used this forum to to accuse our group of " you can't stop it, so why bother" " REALLY ", Jason,I recall the end of the evening when you informed me that you'd had words with one of the members , and the discussion that followed , I don't recall the words "SO WHY BOTHER" you are casting aspersions on our group which I and the others of the group I have spoken this eveing are DISGUSTED that you accuse MOST of us of not caring .
Alan

 

[Helm]

There has been a discussion before regarding the morality of recasting OOP kits. Probably the copyrights to most OOP kits are still held by someone somewhere, possibly with the intention to re-release them one day. I know it must be tempting to convince yourself that a recast of an OOP figure must somehow be a victimless crime.

Recasters are in business because there is a market for their products, and I guess there always will be. I remember some pretty dodgy recasts back in the late 70's. I assume the quality must be a bit better now. I would assume that the motive to buy recasts is based purely on price. People just like to think they're getting a bargain and to hell with the impact on the legitimate producers.

Geoff

It's kind of the same as "abandonware" software, people hang on to the licence for years after it's impossible to buy the original. Personally I would try to get the original but if it was something I really really wanted if a recast was all there was I'd probably buy it if it was a decent job.

 

[gordy]

It looks like there's a good market for OOP stuff and maybe manufacturers should recast their own high value pieces from white metal to resin for exports... it seems Pegasomodels, etc could easily subcontract one of these resinrecasters to do it legitimately.

Sent from my HERO200 using Tapatalk 2

 

[montythefirst]

It looks like there's a good market for OOP stuff and maybe manufacturers should recast their own high value pieces from white metal to resin for exports... it seems Pegasomodels, etc could easily subcontract one of these resinrecasters to do it legitimately.

Sent from my HERO200 using Tapatalk 2

totally agree Gordy they are missing a market their

 

[Redcap]

This subject gets debated time and time again and the thing that seems evident to me, correctly or otherwise, is that the membership on this site (appear) to be more concerned and passionate about the topic and the potential long-term harm inflicted upon the hobby than (collectively) the artists and companies themselves. I have yet to see any meaningful contribution by any of the larger or even major companies on PF or indeed even a "Thanks Chaps" posting from the same for exposing this topic and being vocal in denouncing it. Some of the smaller makers and individual sculptors have done so however.

I know Keith Davidson and I have discussed this before and I think he is absolutely correct when he suggests that perhaps the companies such as Pegaso, Young, Andrea etc factor in the piracy element and work on the business model that they will recoup their costs and make a profit by the initial "rush" to buy a new figure and before the re-casters get their hands on an original copy and get their re-pops up and running. Of course, that cost has to be passed on to us who buy them but I really do wish some of the bigger companies would press eBay and others on this rather than seemingly rely on our honesty and integrity not to buy them and thus save them the problem and inconvenience of potential legal action etc? I accept fully that trying to "prosecute" or "sue for copyright" in countries such as China or indeed pretty much elsewhere is a non-starter nor would they necessarily have the finances to invoke costly legal action. That said, my understanding is that eBay (these days) are pretty quick at shutting people down where a copyright issue is clearly being breached.........No doubt someone will now come along and say otherwise !

Perhaps others more involved in the hobby industry may have a better insight to the wider problem and the above comments are only my personal thoughts and perception of the topic.

Gary

 

[Colin_Fraser]

Its a bigger issue as you will see from the recent defeat of ACTA in the European Parliament after many other countries including Canada signed on. In a world where my kids think all music, movies and TV to be found on the internet are a free gift that comes with the free firefox license, good luck protecting copyright on a few little metal or resin men. I am far from pure myself as I have to admit I frequently download historical docuementaries from You Tube with the rationale that if the producer does not make them available to Canadian TV or in Region 1 DVD form they deserve what they get.

I think the only thing that will protect the smaller figure manufacturers is continued quality and pumping out new product as fast as the market clamours for it. With continuous improvement moving at the pace it has been of late there are not a lot of 5 year + old castings I would want anymore anyway. Advances in 3D printing will make matters much worse too as the fakers will be able to copy product in shifting scales!

Colin

 

[Pops]

(Devil's Advocate...) Have I read this correctly? The chap that started this thread is saying that it is OK to produce re-cast/s for a friend because no money or profit was involved, and yet vilifies those that apparently might have, and demands buyers (possibly unaware of the status of the product) be named and shamed on this forum?......Is this not potentially liable-us behaviour?
Also:
I have to wonder just how badly the more well-known producers and sculptors are affected overall financially. (Would be genuinely pleased to hear from them on this forum...)
OK, so you can tell I'm not in marketing or business straight away, but, can I assume that, i don't know,as an example: The master model is sent for production to a-n-other company (sub-contracted work) and the finished, genuine article is then sold on at a wholesale price to 3rd parties who then market it at what, 2/3rds on top of wholesale to make a retail price? As such, can I assume that, in the rush to get the latest figure, the company/sculptor would have hoped to of made whatever profit (and rightly so!) they were expecting from the wholesale price, and the 3rd party makes his slice, and the modeller at the end of the chain pays at least £28, up to £78+ for a figure? If, judging by Ebay, these figures go for as little as £10 (and we assume the re-caster is making a profit, otherwise what's the point and we can all go to bed...) what is considered a reasonable profit (at each stage) and is it good value for us, the punter, to market a bust at the retail prices suggested? Who actually decided what the RRP on a model/figure/bust should be?

 

[Richie]

Very low price, no box and a figure that was originally in white metal being sold in resin.
The old adige, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't.
Carl.

Hi All,
For someone like me who does not have a couple of years behind him in model making, how are modellers like me going to have that knowledge! Would a figure data base not be a good idea on here, were planeteers could contribute. I would not know if an old figure was supposed to be in metal, resin, printed box or OOP unless stated.

As for the old adige - I can understand what Carl means, but I purchased quite a few Moz figures from AMP Miniatures mostly via ebay - no printed box or instruction sheet/painting guide! and at a great price. I believe Moz took them over again and the rights and master's went elsewhere. (Don't jump on me if I got that wrong)

I have even tried to contact through a third party an owner for some figures that I would like. Even if I have to buy the moulds for the ones I want, as yet no reply. I cannot get enough of this range as these have been OOP for 15 or 20 years. These figures are not being recast.

Gordy make a good point of metal into resin and a resurrection of some past and present figures, I have just purchased some metal kits from abroad and the postage nearly killed the deal for me.

As for me I generally want parts I can cut up, dremel and modify for my own use, spare arms, hands, heads, torso's ect why don't manufacturers offer these aswell if required and prolong the life.

I do not support what these re-casters do and China/Hong Kong seems to bare the brunt of it on here, again as a newbie how do we know a license has not been purchased if we do not have a data base to refer to, you cannot always rely on the internet to find information.

Just my 2 banana's worth.
cheers
Richie

 

[Martin64]

Well, here are my two Euros (cents are no longer enough due to our economical situation): These discussions are coming up again and again. They do not stop anything in respect to copyright violations. Recasters can be found everywhere and the same refers to the customers of their products. Copyright violations regularly need a complaint by the copyright owner to be prosecuted. Everybody can make up his mind and decide if he will buy a copy or not. I for my part will not buy any copy of a product from a company that still exists but it does not make me feel to be better than guys that take another road.
All the best, Martin

 

[yellowcat]

There are recasters from China, Italy, Greece, Poland, Russia, Argentina selling on eBay and they are in business becasuse there are customers buying their products mainly of the cheaper price when compares to original casting. A recast is a recast and will never match the orginal casting. But this will change in a few years when the 3D printing machine is getting cheaper and cheaper to own.
Recently I was looking to buy the Pegaso Guan Yu Chinese General. Look what I found on eBay a recast and you have a choice of resin and metal casting. This is so sad and ridiculious.
It is not hard by companies like Peagso or Young to shut down an ebay listing. All they have to do is get verified by Ebay Vero. Once that happens, they are able to file the Vero reports by email and eBay will shut down the listing and the sellers. I don't see this is happening may be these companies make enough money on the first release and do not care at all.

 

[Boots]

Just to add a comment to the original post. I have just had a quick look at this recasters's ebay site and I can't see where you got the figure that 95% of the buyers were Australian. I looked at the first page of his comments and it appears as though the largest proportion of those buying these products are from France, Italy and the US. They may be paying in Australian Dollars but that doesn't make them Australian. It is simply because the Aussie Dollar is worth more than the US. A simple check of their ID shows where they are located.
At the moment 90mm white metal figures in Australia cost between $125 to $300 to buy, before postage is taken into consideration. It wasn't very many years ago when modellers were complaining because these figures were costing $1 a millimetre. It is becoming more and more apparent that the hobby is getting beyond the means of the normal working man. Whilst I understand that production costs are steadily rising and the artists must be paid for their work I cannot understand why the older casts, some up to ten years old, are costing as much as the newer ones. Can anyone explain why this is happening.
To finish off I must admit to purchasing a recast but as it was so that the figure could be heavily modified I could not justify paying over $120 for something that was going to be chopped to bits.

 

[brian]

I must be the only one that hasn't come across these recasts on e-bay.Do you guys go hunting for them?
Brian

 

[housecarl]

I must be the only one that hasn't come across these recasts on e-bay.Do you guys go hunting for them?
Brian

They come up on searches Brian. But once out of curiosity, I did search recast in resin, that bought up a load of Scale 75s.
Carl.

 

[Zastrow.cuirassier]

All i have to say, i bought 3 of this figures for one of my friend, owner of Blast Models, he was very angry that people copy its own production.
He used vero system on ebay, and the sales stop.
The producers of imitated products, have ebay procedure and law for us.
They only have to use that.
Just a detail, a lot of producers put copyright, but Forget to enregister this copyright with the authorities, as well as to make the steps to be protected.
I know well this problem, as i track this kind of product at big scale, and in France there's a lot of copies in everything.

 

[Edward]

I've never bought a recast but there are regularly recast OOP Kirin kits on ebay which I've been tempted by. I understand that the copyright holder may want to re-release figures but to my knowledge the Kirin figures haven't been re-released since the 90s.. I spent a small fortune on a genuine Kirin Highland Clansman at Euro Militaire but I also want to get hold of the Derek Hansen German Dragoon. There is a recast from Hong Kong on ebay for £17.99. Assuming the quality is good should I not purchase this?

 

[Redcap]

Edward. You open up an entirely different ethical argument on that one. My own thoughts are;

1. If the figure is IN PRODUCTION - then ALWAYS buy the original and put your money into the hands of the legitimate owner of the company or figure range.

2. If the figure is YEARS O.O.P. with no mention or prospect of it being released at a future date (if ever) then personally I fail to see what the problem is? My take on this - and I can think of a number of figures / ranges to which they would apply - is that if if whoever has the molds has refused to re-release the figures even though a demand exists or in the event the original molds have been lost, destroyed or damaged, then who exactly is losing out here? I will probably get pilloried for saying this but I fail to see how it's "piracy" if you obtain a copy of an original figure (for yourself) when the original molds no longer exist or there no prospect of the original range ever being released again.

Helmet on and "Standing to" !
Gary

 

[Einion]

There is a recast [Derek Hansen German Dragoon] from Hong Kong on ebay for £17.99. Assuming the quality is good should I not purchase this?

Totally up to you. It's just like any ethical issue relating to the hobby, the other most obvious one being unlicensed tie-in figures from movies or artwork which are also a kind of theft.

What really bugs me is when there's a double standard with these two things - plenty of people are absolutely damning about recasters* (rightly so IMB) but who will willingly buy a figure or bust that's a different sort of breach of copyright.

*Of stuff currently in production.

Einion

 

[Mark S]

If the figure is YEARS O.O.P. with no mention or prospect of it being released at a future date (if ever) then personally I fail to see what the problem is?

That's an admirable way of looking at the problem Gary, but I can't see your average recaster seeing things the same way. If you feel you can purchase an oop kit reproduction without any concern that's great for you but you're still encouraging and financing a recaster who may not share the same ideals about restricting their activities to oop kits.......in other words it may be a satifactory transaction to you but it's further encouragement and motivation for a recaster to broaden their horizons.....I'd simply suggest that you either jump in and buy the lot or nothing at all. I'd lean towards nothing at all.

And can I take this opportunity to respond to the original premise that 95% of the buyers for the model figure reproductions on ebay by the aforementioned Asian recaster are Australian modellers. I've also had a look at the record of that recaster and I can't see where that ridiculous figure came from. At least half a dozen nations worldwide are represented amongst the buyers.
If you're prepared to make such an outrageous statement on the forum at least put up the link to the site in question to confirm your accusations or so others can see for themselves.

And as far as the postage costs to Australia being so costly as to encourage us of convict stock to support reproduction quality kits only, I can assure you Australia is not in another part of the solar system and we do actually share the same planet. It costs me less to import a 90mm white metal figure from Steve Kirtles or Chuck at Red Lancers or any other overseas supplier than it does for me to send my family a package from one Australian capital city to another. Australian postage costs are notoriusly and ridiculously costly. I'm often left amazed by the affordability of the postage through The Royal Mail and US Post.

Cheers,.. just one Australian's take on this.

 

[Colin_Fraser]

What really bugs me is when there's a double standard with these two things - plenty of people are absolutely damning about recasters* (rightly so IMB) but who will willingly buy a figure or bust that's a different sort of breach of copyright.

Einion

Totally agree. Its a murky issue. I have to assume that the big studios either don't notice the minor ripoffs or don't go after the pieces, that are obviously based on a movie or TV character but cutely named otherwise, due to jurisdictional complexities. And then there are the silly ones like the famous Warriors Civil War figure of Col. Gordon pulled due to threats from Don Troiani. Copyright enforcement in this hobby is consisitently inconsistent!

Colin

 

[bane3D]

I remember same heated forum topic few years back on CMON - when I think Raul Garcia Latorre from Enigma Miniatures called to boycot some China recaster of his copyrighted miniatures. He got full campaign for banning them and contacted Ebay on several occasions, but nothing happend. Because China doesn't have copyright law. And Ebay replied something like that - and Chinese manufacturer had like 10K feedbacks, so market is booming and he was making money for Ebay...I found some Caomao recaster, just check feedback comments of the seller, easily spotted, but it's on you to buy or not...