captnenglish
A Fixture
I don't have problem with the face, I just think this looks like a copy of two or three other pieces
Young Miniatures -August Release
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Theodoros
A Fixture
bonehead
A Fixture
Hello All,
Well, since we are opening up worm cans: This does feel to me much like a copy of a bust I did for Jaguar many years ago. CAUTION: Long commentary ahead.....
This is not the first time this has happened. The Latorre British RFC pilot comes to mind (but why did Raul copy one of my earliest and least competent pieces?) They say imitation is a form of flattery, so I will take it on that basis.
There has been comment about the "disembodied" hand thing. I think Young has been a bit more clever about integrating his: by putting it emerging from beneath the coat. I do not see how anybody could dissociate that hand from the sculpture itself. On mine, the hands are "above board" so a little less "coherent" from a psychological point of view.
Honestly, my bust was one of those fluke things. I had no plan to do this Nazi piece. I just happened to be looking at my parts box one day and BAM, there it was! The head, the hat the hand. I didn't even sculpt the hand myself. It was done by another sculptor for another Jaguar model. To this day, the sculpting of that hand still bothers me, but not the IDEA of it.
Strangely enough, I had been thinking of my recent Richthofen bust way back then. The "vignetted" design of the figure, cut off by the visual edge of the lapels had been in my mind for sometime before this bust unasssumingly flew out of my parts box in a spastic fit of inspiration (and an easy project to turn a quick buck!). How radical: leave off the guy's shoulders and arm so that the viewer has to finish the piece with their imagination!
And I believe this is why some have a problem with the dismembodied hand idea: our models are obsessive/compusively explicit. We want every little zit, insignia and wrinkle sharply rendered. We want our representations to be complete and precise, even if they are only abstract representations of "people". Because of this, some have trouble when faced with a piece which says "I am an abstract representation" in an obviously overt way.
This is the difference between representational art and obsessive craft: art knows it is a representation and plays on that, while craft is obsessed with technique over abstraction. If we fully accept that obsessive/compulsiveness that is modeling, we may have a problem when we are asked to use our imaginations.
I make no claims to being an "artist". The above bust and the less successful Richthofen one are the only pieces I have done that say "art". I have always been a modeler first and this is why I go along with the program and obsessively render stitching and seams on 54mm figures. This is not art - an imaginative expression - it is obsessive craft. I am okay with that. In fact, I have always freely said that what I do is modeling and not art. But I think that inserting a little imagination into what we do can be good for us. It might even make us more like REAL artists! You know, like Marijn van Gils?
As Jay said, we tend to like our nazis haughty and smokin'. There are many here who comment about this. Why nazis? To this I say: why automobile wrecks? How many times have you been stuck in a traffic jam, only to find somewhat further on that the whole jam was caused by a wreck off the side of the road. The cars weren't in the road way: the traffic jam was caused by people rubber necking to gawk at the wreck!
Does this mean we LIKE auto accidents? Does this mean that we are bloodthirsty consumers of mayhem? A few hours of primetime TV will bear out that at least one of these statements SEEMS to be answered in the affirmative. The fact is, we are humans. We are animalistic, reactionary adrenalin junkies. We seem to like that stimulation. THAT is why nazis! We are fascinated by our most base, animalistic human proclivities. How many murders have you seen on TV? Personally, I don't have enough fingers to count them. Even if I used all of your fingers (people reading this), it probably would not be enough. Nazis, car wrecks, TV murders: same thing, relatively speaking.
To those who have a problem with this, it is cultural conditioning. We, as a society, definitely need to work on that. This little pathological human tick explains our endless history of mindless imposed selfish injustice, serial warfare AND our resulting hobby. If nazis bother you, then why not the whole human gestalt that inspires them? THAT is where it all starts folks. Nazis are only a gross symbolic symptom of our applied human sociopathy.
As Pogo once famously said: "We have met the enemy, and he is US!"
Just a little food for thought. Of course, these are just my opinions. I have no intention of defending them to anybody who takes exception to them.
Mike
Well, since we are opening up worm cans: This does feel to me much like a copy of a bust I did for Jaguar many years ago. CAUTION: Long commentary ahead.....
This is not the first time this has happened. The Latorre British RFC pilot comes to mind (but why did Raul copy one of my earliest and least competent pieces?) They say imitation is a form of flattery, so I will take it on that basis.
There has been comment about the "disembodied" hand thing. I think Young has been a bit more clever about integrating his: by putting it emerging from beneath the coat. I do not see how anybody could dissociate that hand from the sculpture itself. On mine, the hands are "above board" so a little less "coherent" from a psychological point of view.
Honestly, my bust was one of those fluke things. I had no plan to do this Nazi piece. I just happened to be looking at my parts box one day and BAM, there it was! The head, the hat the hand. I didn't even sculpt the hand myself. It was done by another sculptor for another Jaguar model. To this day, the sculpting of that hand still bothers me, but not the IDEA of it.
Strangely enough, I had been thinking of my recent Richthofen bust way back then. The "vignetted" design of the figure, cut off by the visual edge of the lapels had been in my mind for sometime before this bust unasssumingly flew out of my parts box in a spastic fit of inspiration (and an easy project to turn a quick buck!). How radical: leave off the guy's shoulders and arm so that the viewer has to finish the piece with their imagination!
And I believe this is why some have a problem with the dismembodied hand idea: our models are obsessive/compusively explicit. We want every little zit, insignia and wrinkle sharply rendered. We want our representations to be complete and precise, even if they are only abstract representations of "people". Because of this, some have trouble when faced with a piece which says "I am an abstract representation" in an obviously overt way.
This is the difference between representational art and obsessive craft: art knows it is a representation and plays on that, while craft is obsessed with technique over abstraction. If we fully accept that obsessive/compulsiveness that is modeling, we may have a problem when we are asked to use our imaginations.
I make no claims to being an "artist". The above bust and the less successful Richthofen one are the only pieces I have done that say "art". I have always been a modeler first and this is why I go along with the program and obsessively render stitching and seams on 54mm figures. This is not art - an imaginative expression - it is obsessive craft. I am okay with that. In fact, I have always freely said that what I do is modeling and not art. But I think that inserting a little imagination into what we do can be good for us. It might even make us more like REAL artists! You know, like Marijn van Gils?
As Jay said, we tend to like our nazis haughty and smokin'. There are many here who comment about this. Why nazis? To this I say: why automobile wrecks? How many times have you been stuck in a traffic jam, only to find somewhat further on that the whole jam was caused by a wreck off the side of the road. The cars weren't in the road way: the traffic jam was caused by people rubber necking to gawk at the wreck!
Does this mean we LIKE auto accidents? Does this mean that we are bloodthirsty consumers of mayhem? A few hours of primetime TV will bear out that at least one of these statements SEEMS to be answered in the affirmative. The fact is, we are humans. We are animalistic, reactionary adrenalin junkies. We seem to like that stimulation. THAT is why nazis! We are fascinated by our most base, animalistic human proclivities. How many murders have you seen on TV? Personally, I don't have enough fingers to count them. Even if I used all of your fingers (people reading this), it probably would not be enough. Nazis, car wrecks, TV murders: same thing, relatively speaking.
To those who have a problem with this, it is cultural conditioning. We, as a society, definitely need to work on that. This little pathological human tick explains our endless history of mindless imposed selfish injustice, serial warfare AND our resulting hobby. If nazis bother you, then why not the whole human gestalt that inspires them? THAT is where it all starts folks. Nazis are only a gross symbolic symptom of our applied human sociopathy.
As Pogo once famously said: "We have met the enemy, and he is US!"
Just a little food for thought. Of course, these are just my opinions. I have no intention of defending them to anybody who takes exception to them.
Mike
bonehead
A Fixture
Okay, I am back: the thing that wouldn't go away......
I did not comment about the "same face" thing brought up about Young's work.
Aren't all figures about the face? It is the first thing we look at when viewing a figure. I find that I will pass a figure by if that first viewing of the face is not satisfactory. The face tells us everything about the figure. It tells us "who" the figure is.
Many times it also tells us who the sculptor is. A good example would be the work of the great master Roger Saunders. His faces are brilliant and expressive. But they always have a certain look about them, don't they? They all, clearly, are the work of the same person. Roger's faces are a reflection of the man himself. Not that they look like him, but that they look like his work. I don't know why they all look similar, even though individual in many respects, they just do. I think it is about the approach. He sculpts them in a certain way and that makes them come out with a particular look.
The same could be said about SOME of Young's work. Several of his pieces seem to be unconscious attempts to sculpt the same face, repeatedly. They all look the same in a family sort of way. But I disagree that this bust is the same deal. It shows a bit different character - in the mouth particularly.
I suppose if a sculptor has his mind set on a particular approach to sculpting the face they will always, by default, look the same. It may be hard for some sculptors to get out of that unconscious rut. This why I have always used photos of real people to inspire my faces. If I really work toward making them individual, then that human instinct to keep making them the same can be mitigated somewhat.
I am glad to see that Young is moving away from that instinct a little bit. If some still think this face looks like the others, then maybe he needs to work a little harder on finding a way to make them different. Using photos of real people has always helped me.
Mike
I did not comment about the "same face" thing brought up about Young's work.
Aren't all figures about the face? It is the first thing we look at when viewing a figure. I find that I will pass a figure by if that first viewing of the face is not satisfactory. The face tells us everything about the figure. It tells us "who" the figure is.
Many times it also tells us who the sculptor is. A good example would be the work of the great master Roger Saunders. His faces are brilliant and expressive. But they always have a certain look about them, don't they? They all, clearly, are the work of the same person. Roger's faces are a reflection of the man himself. Not that they look like him, but that they look like his work. I don't know why they all look similar, even though individual in many respects, they just do. I think it is about the approach. He sculpts them in a certain way and that makes them come out with a particular look.
The same could be said about SOME of Young's work. Several of his pieces seem to be unconscious attempts to sculpt the same face, repeatedly. They all look the same in a family sort of way. But I disagree that this bust is the same deal. It shows a bit different character - in the mouth particularly.
I suppose if a sculptor has his mind set on a particular approach to sculpting the face they will always, by default, look the same. It may be hard for some sculptors to get out of that unconscious rut. This why I have always used photos of real people to inspire my faces. If I really work toward making them individual, then that human instinct to keep making them the same can be mitigated somewhat.
I am glad to see that Young is moving away from that instinct a little bit. If some still think this face looks like the others, then maybe he needs to work a little harder on finding a way to make them different. Using photos of real people has always helped me.
Mike
JGREEN
A Fixture
I think my comment about the "disembodied" nature of the hand has been misunderstood. It has nothing to do with my imagination, or lack thereof. I have no problem with the idea of the hand appearing without the entire arm being represented, in fact I like it. My concern is the unnatural position of said hand, and that's why it looks disembodied to me. Compare the Young bust with Mike's Jaguar bust, both shown in the post above. The concept is the same, in fact the busts are very, very similar; however, the hand on Mike's bust does not look disembodied to me at all. Why? Because the hand is in a more natural position and it actually looks like the hand belongs to "that guy." There's no cognitive dissonance like with the Young bust when the mind, at least mine, says "something just doesn't look quite right." Mike states he thinks Young has been a bit more clever about integrating the hand and has produced a more psychologically coherent sculpture, but personally I find the Jaguar piece far superior.
Jason
Jason
bonehead
A Fixture
Jason,
Well, thanks! I did misinterpret your criticism of the Young bust. Personally, I do not find it as jarring as you do. Also, in the past I recieved some coments about my busts where people seemed concerned about their "incompleteness". So, I am sorry to assume that this was the same case with your comments. Once bitten, twice shy I suppose.
I like the Young bust. But I cannot help but feel that it is a little TOO familiar. Having said that, the "Sturmbannfuhrer" bust I did for Jaguar was probably the most successful thing i ever did for them sales-wise. Funny that it was also one of my knock-off quickies as well.....
I suspect that this bust will be a good seller for Young as well. Sort of like car wrecks and TV murders.........
Mike
Well, thanks! I did misinterpret your criticism of the Young bust. Personally, I do not find it as jarring as you do. Also, in the past I recieved some coments about my busts where people seemed concerned about their "incompleteness". So, I am sorry to assume that this was the same case with your comments. Once bitten, twice shy I suppose.
I like the Young bust. But I cannot help but feel that it is a little TOO familiar. Having said that, the "Sturmbannfuhrer" bust I did for Jaguar was probably the most successful thing i ever did for them sales-wise. Funny that it was also one of my knock-off quickies as well.....
I suspect that this bust will be a good seller for Young as well. Sort of like car wrecks and TV murders.........
Mike
Martin Antonenko
A Fixture
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2008
- Messages
- 8,780
Dear Members,
I don’t want to offend anyone of you…
But Nazi-KZ-murderers compare to car wrecks seems a little bit naïve for me…
People from France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, Russia and other European countries, who lost (like me!) family-members by the Nazis would see it quite a little bit different.
Thank Your god, that you live in the US, UK, Australia, where the Nazis never marched in.
Here in Germany it is (for that) stricly forbitten by law to show such a figure with it’s SS and Nazi-Badges in any competition. You have to cover them before.
Greetings
I don’t want to offend anyone of you…
But Nazi-KZ-murderers compare to car wrecks seems a little bit naïve for me…
People from France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, Russia and other European countries, who lost (like me!) family-members by the Nazis would see it quite a little bit different.
Thank Your god, that you live in the US, UK, Australia, where the Nazis never marched in.
Here in Germany it is (for that) stricly forbitten by law to show such a figure with it’s SS and Nazi-Badges in any competition. You have to cover them before.
Greetings
megroot
A Fixture
Martin,
Sorry, but i do not agree with you. I also lost familly in the WW II. But how many people have lost familly in WW I, The Korean War, The Napoleontic War.
It is history that has been written.
Must we banded the Napoleontic figures, The Romans, The US Army from the competition tables.
Why we step over it, our lives go on, and we are doing nothing more then painting historical figures.
I personally don't like what Hitler did in WW II, but we must see a figure off him just like a figure. The person is not coming back (it is no Voodoo)
when we paint him. Are the SS and the Nazi's coming back.
We all made or had made AFV. How many people died through that weapon. Should we forbid them...
No, i think we all know what is happen in history, from the prehistory untill today people are killed, murdered etc.
But we all should remember it, and pay our attention to it... Still it looks like we never learn anything about the past.
So let us paint historicall miniature figures and let us show them.
Marc
T50
A Fixture
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2004
- Messages
- 2,023
Gentlemen,
Why do we need to be reminded of the Nazi war atrocities at this point as if
this is the first SS Totenkopf related figure ever? This type of comments has been
made "to death" since the day 1 of WW2 model building.
We all know what had happened. Let's give a rest.
Why do we need to be reminded of the Nazi war atrocities at this point as if
this is the first SS Totenkopf related figure ever? This type of comments has been
made "to death" since the day 1 of WW2 model building.
We all know what had happened. Let's give a rest.
SPrimeau
A Fixture
I like the bust. I don't care for the "hand thing" going on with it though. I have both Mike Good busts- the SS Jaguar one and the Red Baron one, both are superbly sculpted pieces but I plan on modifiying the SS version by removing the hand when I am 83 years old and finally get a chance to paint it and in fact have modified/removed the hand on the Baron one as seen below as it is one of my next victims on the work bench. People have similiar ways of sculpting and painting from piece to piece, it's natural for artists I think. I am a big fan of Young's busts and have a few in my army, just because they may look alike facially hasn't steered me away from purchasing. I didn't care for the the floating hands on Good's pieces either but I purchased them because they are excellent sculpts and I was going to modify them anyway. Just my 2 cents coming from a guy who has done 2 bust sculpts each having one arm in the piece only. How's that for irony-
Time to paint!
Scott
Time to paint!
Scott
Attachments
arthur
A Fixture
HolyCrap
Who would think that another WWII German bust will stimulate so much discussion
While I agree withwhat Martin said in his original post there is an other side to the story as well.We as modellers are the culprits here. We buy kits representing unit members that commited atrocities (not just WWII) because its a hobby not a scale re-anactment, and when we choose to build let say a diorama with these individuals involved we make sure that the scene is not "offensive" to anyone. We clean history gents because it's a hobby.
If modellers would not buy SS figures there would not be a market for them,...simple as that.
I am sure few years from now somone will release a bust of Einsatzkommando (check your history sources if you are not sure what I am talking about) officer or trooper with a grin on his face and it will most likely sell,...though there will be a heated discussion after it pops up.
I just wish somone would release a "beaten up" SS-Shutze (eg. recent Andrea bust) because I have in my stash enough Aryan superman dudes with blond hair and perfect teeth
OK who's next on the soap box
Who would think that another WWII German bust will stimulate so much discussion
While I agree withwhat Martin said in his original post there is an other side to the story as well.We as modellers are the culprits here. We buy kits representing unit members that commited atrocities (not just WWII) because its a hobby not a scale re-anactment, and when we choose to build let say a diorama with these individuals involved we make sure that the scene is not "offensive" to anyone. We clean history gents because it's a hobby.
If modellers would not buy SS figures there would not be a market for them,...simple as that.
I am sure few years from now somone will release a bust of Einsatzkommando (check your history sources if you are not sure what I am talking about) officer or trooper with a grin on his face and it will most likely sell,...though there will be a heated discussion after it pops up.
I just wish somone would release a "beaten up" SS-Shutze (eg. recent Andrea bust) because I have in my stash enough Aryan superman dudes with blond hair and perfect teeth
OK who's next on the soap box
Uruk-Hai
PlanetFigure Supporter
Martin!
SS-Totenkopf actually was a fighting unit as well as being guards in the Konzentration camps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_SS_Division_Totenkopf
Cheers
SS-Totenkopf actually was a fighting unit as well as being guards in the Konzentration camps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_SS_Division_Totenkopf
Cheers
Anders Heintz
A Fixture
You have a good enough argument, but the bust is of the SS Div. Totenkopf or 3. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division Totenkopf or 3. SS-Panzer-Division Totenkopf, and not of a prison guard.
The unit saw much combat in France, Russia/Eastern Front and Budapest.
tonydawe
A Fixture
Martin,
I can sympathise with your position, and I appreciate that things would look much different for me if I grew up in post-WW2 Germany, rather than here in Australia, however the fact remains that one person's heroes are another persons villians, and vice versa.
Our responsibility as figure modellers is not to make judgements about who was right and who was wrong, but to attempt to model an accurate representation of a human being, regardless of the uniform that person is wearing.
Personally, I've never understood the huge popularity of German WW2 soldiers (and AFV's) as modelling subjects, but they continue to be popular and because of that manufacturers keep producing them. It's a matter of simple economics.
I'm certain no one on Planet Figure is condoning the actions of Nazi concentration camp guards, but they are a part of the history of our modern world, and therefore a legimate subject for historical miniaturists.
I personally wouldn't buy this bust, because I don't particularly like WW2 German subjects, and my only issue with Young Miniatures is that they make too many WW2 Germans, in my opinion.
Martin, I think you've made your point mate.
Cheers
I can sympathise with your position, and I appreciate that things would look much different for me if I grew up in post-WW2 Germany, rather than here in Australia, however the fact remains that one person's heroes are another persons villians, and vice versa.
Our responsibility as figure modellers is not to make judgements about who was right and who was wrong, but to attempt to model an accurate representation of a human being, regardless of the uniform that person is wearing.
Personally, I've never understood the huge popularity of German WW2 soldiers (and AFV's) as modelling subjects, but they continue to be popular and because of that manufacturers keep producing them. It's a matter of simple economics.
I'm certain no one on Planet Figure is condoning the actions of Nazi concentration camp guards, but they are a part of the history of our modern world, and therefore a legimate subject for historical miniaturists.
I personally wouldn't buy this bust, because I don't particularly like WW2 German subjects, and my only issue with Young Miniatures is that they make too many WW2 Germans, in my opinion.
Martin, I think you've made your point mate.
Cheers
busso_boy
Well-Known Member
i see everyones point but to my mind this is a bust of someone carrying out orders (putting aside if he enjoyed it or not)......I dont remember such a fuss on Andrea's Heydrich, Hitler or Goring figures who made these orders. Or for that matter anyone of a number of historical figures that may of conquered other worlds or countries and then slaughtered the local populations.
I'm not going to take political sides on the bust..........for me its just another well sculpted figure
I'm not going to take political sides on the bust..........for me its just another well sculpted figure
Drebil
Member
A few words more: What is HISTORY? Nothing else, but the winners side of the story. Therefore it never will be accurate and exact. For example, in our schools the North- South Conflict was mentioned as a fight against the southern racists, and against slavery in general. Which is a simple lie. How many Southern Generals, or vignette themes are on the market?
Or what about the British, the Spanish, the Portugese, or the Dutch Empire? How many millions on the Earth should hate them? Or the Ottomans? Or the Huns? Or the Chinese? Japanese? Wikings? Wake up and see, that the history of the humanity is full of fight. And mostly for what? Surviving? Hell, no. Power, influence, money.... And we here still reproduce atomic parts of them. Why? Because we like it somehow. It is in our genre.
So just wanted to say, HAPPY MODELING
Peter
Or what about the British, the Spanish, the Portugese, or the Dutch Empire? How many millions on the Earth should hate them? Or the Ottomans? Or the Huns? Or the Chinese? Japanese? Wikings? Wake up and see, that the history of the humanity is full of fight. And mostly for what? Surviving? Hell, no. Power, influence, money.... And we here still reproduce atomic parts of them. Why? Because we like it somehow. It is in our genre.
So just wanted to say, HAPPY MODELING
Peter
T50
A Fixture
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2004
- Messages
- 2,023
Hello Martin
May I ask you a question? Just curious....
Do you believe that we, miniature modelers, should be
more responsible and careful about choosing modelling
subjects that are only related to the Nazi genocide of the Jews?
or all the major war atrocities/genocides throughout the
history equally?
May I ask you a question? Just curious....
Do you believe that we, miniature modelers, should be
more responsible and careful about choosing modelling
subjects that are only related to the Nazi genocide of the Jews?
or all the major war atrocities/genocides throughout the
history equally?
Uruk-Hai
PlanetFigure Supporter
A few words more: What is HISTORY? Nothing else, but the winners side of the story. Therefore it never will be accurate and exact. For example, in our schools the North- South Conflict was mentioned as a fight against the southern racists, and against slavery in general. Which is a simple lie. How many Southern Generals, or vignette themes are on the market?
Or what about the British, the Spanish, the Portugese, or the Dutch Empire? How many millions on the Earth should hate them? Or the Ottomans? Or the Huns? Or the Chinese? Japanese? Wikings? Wake up and see, that the history of the humanity is full of fight. And mostly for what? Surviving? Hell, no. Power, influence, money.... And we here still reproduce atomic parts of them. Why? Because we like it somehow. It is in our genre.
So just wanted to say, HAPPY MODELING
Peter
Well, about the victors writing the history.
That is a myth which might only be possible for a short while. And history books are actually updated regulary a long with evidence.
When it comes to WWII and ACW, I must say that the loosers have pretty much to add to the history books, especially when you add the magnitude of the loss.
Sadly I often hear such things from people with an political agenda.
Cheers
Drebil
Member
Janne,
For the reason you mentioned i did not recited the WWII. WWII is a significant but minor part of history.
Peter
For the reason you mentioned i did not recited the WWII. WWII is a significant but minor part of history.
Peter
Uruk-Hai
PlanetFigure Supporter
Well my point more or less is that you dont get away with lies in the long run.
It was easier in earlier periods with your own region where you might have had control but most of it has surfaced some years later never the less.
On the other hand are my signatures somewhat examples of what becomes a "truth" while being transmitted by the jungle telegraph.
Cheers
It was easier in earlier periods with your own region where you might have had control but most of it has surfaced some years later never the less.
On the other hand are my signatures somewhat examples of what becomes a "truth" while being transmitted by the jungle telegraph.
Cheers
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