Painting a Samurai from Bonapartes - All advice welcome

[NeilW]

Luckily with this fig you only have the sleeves to contend with, but the other challenge is the fabric.

As I understand it this could be a fairly heavy silk woven brocades or embroidered, hand painted or stencilled or block printed patterns.

There is a whole rich tradition of colours and patterns (Felix's link above shows some pattern books... which is what reminded me about this aspect).

I'm no expert in this field but from my own research they seem to boil down to:

• colourful pictorial styles (often cranes, mythical beasts, chrysanthemums etc often combined with abstract elements and sometimes quite scenic... probably best left to gifted painters such as Olga)
• strict geometric patterns, often based on stylisations of objects such as tortoise shells, arrows, fans, waves etc (IMHO damn near impossible to paint- hence my interest in transfers)
• less rigid quite abstract patterns, again often stylized objects (in fact they are repeat pattern stencils but their shapes belies this so easier to get away with).
• basic checks, hatches, dogtooths, florals etc (seemed popular in later periods and of course for the poorer bods)

There was an infinite variety of style and variations on the above, but the examples:

NB: I've tried to select traditional styles but some are modern interpretations, so use only as a guide (there's loads of refs below- again, treat with caution)

BTW: you said you were going to the Leeds Armoury: if you're local I believe that the Leeds University has a collection of Japanese fabrics. (mainly C19/20th- check out the pattern books and stencils)




Here's a modern stencil showing how the 'seamless' repeat patterns worked(and a lovely one from Leeds showing spiders on their web).

The Japanese aesthetic would often result in quite plain, subdued patterns with just the odd splash of colour or main motif.


Here's an example of a basic pattern being augmented by additional motifs:


As I understand it mons were never used as a pattern (though they might appear as badges on some garments notably jinbaori/surcoats).

The many samurai prints are useful refs but be aware that most are well after the period of this figure and as many are romanticised and/or portray kabuki actors, they represent what one might consider 'status/stage- bling' rather than actuality.

It also helps to know how the under-armour clothing worked: this book helps (again thanks Felix- No 3 on his resf list)

The linings of Felix's jinbaori refs also show patterns.

Indigo seemed to be popular in later times. Otherwise, this is a ref for traditional Japanese colours.

There are tons of refs online (some examples below) ... but be careful of modern motifs creping in some of them (somehow a Hein period Hello Kitty print doesn't ring true). Also, some sites attribute specific meaning to patterns, motifs and colours: I'd take these with a pinch of salt.

https://kirikomade.com/blogs/our-fabrics/japanese-patterns-1
https://kirikomade.com/blogs/our-fabrics/japanese-patterns-2
https://www.patternz.jp/japanese-patterns-traditional-motifs/
https://nunoya.com/epages/ec2949.sf/en_GB/?
https://www.hotelzen.jp/blog/japanese-traditional-patterns/ObjectPath=/Shops/ec2949/Categories/"Japanese Fabrics"/"Geometric & Traditional motifs"
https://www.shutterstock.com/g/LuciaOtero?searchterm=japanese
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/search/pins/?q=Japanese textiles&rs=srs&b_id=BOFM_DQmkBVMAAAAAAAAAACW5m37C0wkGNlTPSBY5lRW2M-i8FLtwpWeTQw7wfbkc5hP-aYg8BK1n9AgLZwVVHg&source_id=rlp_rMszcKAH
https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00478/traditional-japanese-patterns.html
https://polinacouture.com/en/the-meaning-of-patterns-on-japanese-fabrics/
https://www.vectorstock.com/royalty-free-vectors/japanese-fabric-patterns-vectors
http://www.fabricandart.com/Japanese-Indigo-Fabrics.html

 

[Nap]

That's a BIG WOW !!!!! from me Neil

Great refs and links !

Nap

 

[clrsgt]

WOW. Great references for the Samurai lover. Doing a samurai figure is sadly beyond my painting skills and comfort level, so although I sometimes think of doing one, I always stifle the urge; besides my GGA is way too large anyway. Good luck with your samurai.

 

[NeilW]

Hi Felix, wondered when you'd show up

Hope you don't mind my using/linking to some of your excellent material, but why re-invent the wheel

Good heads up on the wrong elements* : I recall the issues that you hadwith this fig

I recognise similar problems with the o-sode in the pics in my very old Robinson book which uses photos from the Venice Museum. As your rear-shot photo attests, the agemaki/bow and cords seem pretty pants as well

I don't know what you think (?), but I noticed that the left arm seems to have lacing along its lower side, which would imply a tighter fitting kote/sleeve, whereas the modelled sleeve seems full, as per the right. A single tight kote would fit in with the tsurubashiri-gawa (both to avoid the bowstring from catching) as in earlier periods the bow would be the main weapon. If this were the case one would expect not only a bow but also the ebira/quiver and spool for the spare bowstring.

Re-looking at the kit's components and B's website the kosazuri/skirts look strange as well (two wide side pieces, a narrow rear piece and a strange stepped front one- presumably made that way to fit the saddle).


No period is claimed for the piece, although the fact that he's wearing a mempo/mask and the shape of the helmet make him look wrong for an early date, so he seems a bit of a mash up (or a later bod wearing a 'retro-yoroi', as became common).


*even the Bonaparte website is confused: one pic has them positioned correctly, the other not

 

[Oda]

Felix's posts are always extremely interesting and worth reading unto their own even if there is no figure involved.I am also dedicated to historical accuracy wherever and whenever this is possible by the existing data (archaeology ,sculptures,paintings etc).

Japanese armour is a topic quite demanding but for which an abundance of solid documentation exists.

Given that there is really no excuse for a sculptor not to render all the details as correctly as possible.What actually happens is that sculptors with no previous experience or expertise on the subject are called upon or decide to recreate japanese armour in scale.

They usually use one picture or two (or more) as reference but do not go into depth.Details that are not depicted in their reference are omited and left out altogether while pieces that are functional as the sendan no ita and kyubi no ita are put on just for their decorational value.

Japanese armour evolved through the centuries and in most historical periods (I leave mid to late Edo period out for obvious reason) it abides to the long standing designer's maxim of "form follow function".

Japanese armor is magnificent and most pleasimg to the eye when it's put on or displayed correctly with all parts in their due place.

So I stand with Felix on this one,I would not buy or paint a piece with so many flaws.Having said that I find nothing wrong with someone starting his samurai painting career on such a bust.

Oda.

 

[Nap]

Hi Guys

A big thanks again from me for all the details being put onto this thread ...I am saving all areas that need looking at for future reference and learning so much as well

It's appreciated the time taken in particular highlighting the parts not right on the sculpt by circling

Helping each other with details like this is what PF is all about and long may it continue

Agree with Oda's comments as well

Look forward to Malcolm getting this going

Happy referencing and benchtime to all

Nap

PS I have now got such detail on Samurai and will more than likely be getting a samurai ...though not sure which one yet ! ....this one is big and easier to rework as needed

 

[VisjeMar]

If I ever paint a samurai it is good to know all these things. A big thank you

 

[Cannonball]

Good luck with this Malcolm, not an easy subject to tackle. For the flaws that have been pointed out it still looks a cracking piece and the reference material and advice being provided on how to overcome these and general Samurai clothing info is absolutely fantastic and what this site is all about from my experience. Hope you enjoy tackling this and look forward to seeing your progress.

Neal

 

[NeilW]

Links to more lacing patterns:
https://archive.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/ke05/ke05_00230/ke05_00230_0001/ke05_00230_0001.html
https://archive.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/ke05/ke05_00230/ke05_00230_0002/ke05_00230_0002.html

 

[Malcolm]

Luckily with this fig you only have the sleeves to contend with, but the other challenge is the fabric.

As I understand it this could be a fairly heavy silk woven brocades or embroidered, hand painted or stencilled printed patterns.

There is a whole rich tradition of colours and patterns (Felix's link above shows some pattern books... which is what reminded me about this aspect).

I'm no expert in this field but from my own research they seem to boil down to:

• colourful pictorial styles (often cranes, mythical beasts, chrysanthemums etc often combined with abstract elements and sometimes quite scenic... probably best left to gifted painters such as Olga)
• strict geometric patterns, often based on stylisations of objects such as tortoise shells, arrows, fans, waves etc (IMHO damn near impossible to paint- hence my interest in transfers)
• less rigid quite abstract patterns, again often stylized objects (in fact they are repeat pattern stencils but their shapes belies this so easier to get away with).
• basic checks, hatches, dogtooths, florals etc (seemed popular in later periods and of course for the poorer bods)

There was an infinite variety of style and variations on the above, but the examples:


NB: I've tried to select traditional styles but some are modern interpretations, so use only as a guide (there's loads of refs below- again, treat with caution)

BTW: you said you were going to the Leeds Armoury: if you're local I believe that the Leeds University has a collection of Japanese fabrics. (mainly C19/20th- check out the pattern books and stencils)

View attachment 395322 View attachment 395325
View attachment 395324 View attachment 395333

Here's a modern stencil showing how the 'seamless' repeat patterns worked(and a lovely one from Leeds showing spiders on their web).

The Japanese aesthetic would often result in quite plain, subdued patterns with just the odd splash of colour or main motif.
View attachment 395328 View attachment 395326 View attachment 395329

Here's an example of a basic pattern being augmented by additional motifs:
View attachment 395330 View attachment 395331 View attachment 395332

As I understand it mons were never used as a pattern (though they might appear as badges on some garments notably jinbaori/surcoats).

The many samurai prints are useful refs but be aware that most are well after the period of this figure and as many are romanticised and/or portray kabuki actors, they represent what one might consider 'status/stage- bling' rather than actuality.

It also helps to know how the under-armour clothing worked: this book helps (again thanks Felix- No 3 on his resf list)

The linings of Felix's jinbaori refs also show patterns.

Indigo seemed to be popular in later times. Otherwise, this is a ref for traditional Japanese colours.

There are tons of refs online (some examples below) ... but be careful of modern motifs creping in some of them (somehow a Hein period Hello Kitty print doesn't ring true). Also, some sites attribute specific meaning to patterns, motifs and colours: I'd take these with a pinch of salt.

https://kirikomade.com/blogs/our-fabrics/japanese-patterns-1
https://kirikomade.com/blogs/our-fabrics/japanese-patterns-2
https://www.patternz.jp/japanese-patterns-traditional-motifs/
https://nunoya.com/epages/ec2949.sf/en_GB/?
https://www.hotelzen.jp/blog/japanese-traditional-patterns/ObjectPath=/Shops/ec2949/Categories/"Japanese Fabrics"/"Geometric & Traditional motifs"
https://www.shutterstock.com/g/LuciaOtero?searchterm=japanese
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/search/pins/?q=Japanese textiles&rs=srs&b_id=BOFM_DQmkBVMAAAAAAAAAACW5m37C0wkGNlTPSBY5lRW2M-i8FLtwpWeTQw7wfbkc5hP-aYg8BK1n9AgLZwVVHg&source_id=rlp_rMszcKAH
https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00478/traditional-japanese-patterns.html
https://polinacouture.com/en/the-meaning-of-patterns-on-japanese-fabrics/
https://www.vectorstock.com/royalty-free-vectors/japanese-fabric-patterns-vectors
http://www.fabricandart.com/Japanese-Indigo-Fabrics.html

Fantastic, just great many thanks

 

[Malcolm]

Hello Malcolm,

I am having déjà vu on this piece. You should check your casting very carefully.
Take a look at my thread: https://www.planetfigure.com/threads/bad-casting-from-bonaparte.113311/

There are major problems with the sculp and is ridiculous wrong. The Kyuinoita dovetail board and the Sendannoita wood board is in the wrong position. So as with the Osode.
To correct this you need to re-position and re-sculpt the cord that attach to the armour. Also I would re-sculpt the horse reins rather than using the twisted wires.


View attachment 395393 View attachment 395387 View attachment 395378 View attachment 395424

Correct way to mount the board

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For the Osode

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Please check out my thread on wearing O-Yoroi armour
https://www.planetfigure.com/threads/more-samurai-references-wearing-o-yoroi-armor.118978/

Good luck !

Cheers,

Felix

This is just stunning Thank you so much

 

[Malcolm]

A selection from later Edo prints (they're highly stylized/theatrical and probably reflect later, more fashionable/bling, styles than this figure but may provide some inspiration)

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... and plain

Fantastic thank you

 

[Malcolm]

Absolutely fantastic reference and tons of information.
Going to the armouries today, so will see if I can get some photos and post them here, I won’t use a flash, so we will see if they are any good.
thank you all so much for the wealth and detail of the information
thank you all, will update with some photos of the figure when I start

 

[Nap]

Absolutely fantastic reference and tons of information.
Going to the armouries today, so will see if I can get some photos and post them here, I won’t use a flash, so we will see if they are any good.
thank you all so much for the wealth and detail of the information
thank you all, will update with some photos of the figure when I start

Have a great day ...lots of pics ..of anything !

Nap

 

[NeilW]

These are the same books that I have and had previously done a review on.

Hi Felix,

I think I might originally have got the link to these via yourself (all credit to you and your fantastic resources).

Do you know of a key/translation of the text of these so we can hear more about the clan/rank system?

Cheers, Neil

 

[NeilW]

Absolutely fantastic reference and tons of information.
Going to the armouries today, so will see if I can get some photos and post them here, I won’t use a flash, so we will see if they are any good.
thank you all so much for the wealth and detail of the information
thank you all, will update with some photos of the figure when I start

Lucky ol' you

Make sure that you post your pics

PS: you often get windows/lights etc reflecting off the cabinet glass... one old trick is to take an umbrella (or at least a newspaper) to block it out.

 

[Malcolm]

My visit to the armouries today, what a fantastic place, before COVID I used to go there 4/5 times a year, unfortunately this is the first time this year, the team there are doing a great job in keeping it COVID safe, and I have to say, thanks to them all, now, on to the pics, most of them were taken through glass display cases so there is unfortunately some reflection

 

[NeilW]

Some good pics/refs there Malcom... I'm envious (as I live 200 miles away and no longer visit on business)

BoL with the fig (faults and all).

 

[Nap]

Hi Malcolm

Who cares about reflections ...great references , like Neil I lve too far but WOW!!! ...what a place

Thanks for the pics

Nap

 

[Malcolm]

When this COVID thing is over with, always come and stop over here, split up the visit, more than welcome, that’s an open invitation, great to meet up with like minded people.