WIP Sapeur Neuchatel Battalion 1809

[Gary_81]

Fixing dyes in the late 18th early 19th century was still temperamental especially on large quantities that you could probably get soldiers stood side by side with slightly differing shades in uniform colour.
I think as long as your are in the rough region it will still look amazing especially with your quality painting Geoff.

Gary

 

[Richard Baxter]

Hi Richard,

How can we be sure the pic colour is exactly the correct colour? also how about weathering, washing and sun bleaching, also how good were the dyes?

Have you seen the varying colours of German WW2 tunic colours over time due to the above variants?



I apply shade colour first before adding the main colour but I think it would be a mid brown but I would have to test this first, but possibly Vallejo MC 876/132 Brown Sand or MC 914/119 Green Ochre.



I have just seen your link, that is a completely different colour to the reenactors uniforms which I would be more confident of. If you look at the variation of the colours with the prints which I believe Nap posted not one is the same.



Geoff

Absolutely fair comment, Geoff. All part of the attraction of the hobby.

 

[Geoff Charman]

Fixing dyes in the late 18th early 19th century was still temperamental especially on large quantities that you could probably get soldiers stood side by side with slightly differing shades in uniform colour.
I think as long as your are in the rough region it will still look amazing especially with your quality painting Geoff.

Gary

Thank you Gary, I will do my best, and it would be a shame if I didn't do such a beautifully sculpted bust justice.

Cheers
Geoff

 

[Geoff Charman]

Absolutely fair comment, Geoff. All part of the attraction of the hobby.

Thank you Richard, pleased you agree with me.

Cheers
Geoff

 

[Viking Bob]

 

[Nap]

Cheers Bob ...That's what I was looking at in my stuff

Nap

 

[Tonton]

My first wife was into spinning wool and knew a fair bit about natural dyes. As far as yellows are concerned, plain onion skins yield a very good and permanent yellow, if I remember correctly. The shade of yellow could be easily manipulated by the addition of other natural ingredients to give whatever shade was wanted.

There would never have been a shortage of onion skins, either and they were easy to ‘fix’.

Jeff

 

[Richard Baxter]

View attachment 371326

That's very interesting, Bob. Who produced the original?

 

[NeilW]

Interesting discussion ref the colour of their coats.

Did a bit of research and it seems that there are a few surviving uniforms in collections in Montreux and Les Invalides (and Neuchatel itself?) and also some contemporary paintings by various artists (don't know if Vernet's series includes them?). The one, of Cpt. J H Bosset is shown below alongside the surviving jacket in Les Invalades (there's also ref to Cdt Le Bosset's?).

The painting shows a slightly subdued yellow (Bob's Jonquille?) but note the fading on the surviving one (or is that Bob's Chamois?).



https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Henri_de_Bosset
http://lasabretache.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/INVENT_1-compressé.pdf

The small pics come from J-P Ganascia's list of surviving Swiss army items here:
http://docplayer.fr/50533637-Jean-p...tion-des-amis-du-musee-militaire-vaudois.html

Look under Colombier (pg 31 (M) and 33 (T) to see what I assume are equally faded surviving uniforms and 29 (G) for a (contemporary?) print. Colombier also seems to have the de Bosset painting.

I don't know whether Vernet's prints include the Neuchatel... anyone?

A 1st Regt officer's coatee (Cpt. A Rey) is in the Chateau de Morges and shows that vivid yellows were achievable (this, along with his shako were once believed to be repro but are now taken as original... remarkable state of preservation). There's another in Montreux (see Ganascia Pg 56 /U)
http://www.chateau-morges.ch/le-chateau/equipe/pascal-pouly/


Might the Neuchatel have had the same colours reversed?

There's an interesting and well referenced discussion of the colour in the MaA 476 on the Swiss regiments, upon which they based their plates.


FWIW Knotel goes for a bright-ish-orangey, (Bob's Jaune d'Or?) but not chemical, shade:
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/440930619748648479/
https://www.pinterest.fr/pin/483362972502488506/
https://www.pinterest.jp/pin/506584658069347224/
https://www.pinterest.ie/pin/467881848768242631/
https://www.pinterest.ie/pin/420453315208156582/


Out of interest, this is what Jouineau (French Hussars No2: https://www.amazon.com/Officers-Soldiers-French-Hussars-Vol/dp/2915239541) has to say about the 3rd Hussars' Argentine Grey, which illustrates the problem with getting colurs right (that is assuming that with the mainly vegetable and mineral dies in use they were ever 'standard' and, if then, for more than a few months before fading).

 

[NeilW]

View attachment 371326

Thanks Bob: I've seen this before but couldn't find it again... you've saved me yet more hours of keyboard time

 

[NeilW]

My first wife was into spinning wool and knew a fair bit about natural dyes. As far as yellows are concerned, plain onion skins yield a very good and permanent yellow, if I remember correctly. The shade of yellow could be easily manipulated by the addition of other natural ingredients to give whatever shade was wanted.

There would never have been a shortage of onion skins, either and they were easy to ‘fix’.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff: I'd forgotten about this... my Grandad used to die boiled eggs for easter using onion (and other) skins for us kids. As you say, bright yellows were possible (but as we ate the eggs I don't know how permanent they were )

 

[Chrisr]

Geoff,

I agree with Nap and Richard. The generally accepted view is they wore a 'Chamois" yellow. For what it is worth Histoire and Collections Allied Swiss Troops in French Service 1785-1815 describes their uniform as such " The infantry wore light chamois yellow uniforms ...' while John R Elting's Napoleonic Uniforms Volume 2, page 116, mentions 'Its coats are usually described as yellow, though their official description was chamois - a yellow-brown or buff shade, resembling contemporary "Indian" Yellow which sun and rain might convert into light yellow or dull orange.'

Regards
Chris

 

[NeilW]

Geoff,

I agree with Nap and Richard. The generally accepted view is they wore a 'Chamois" yellow. For what it is worth Histoire and Collections Allied Swiss Troops in French Service 1785-1815 describes their uniform as such " The infantry wore light chamois yellow uniforms ...' while John R Elting's Napoleonic Uniforms Volume 2, page 116, mentions 'Its coats are usually described as yellow, though their official description was chamois - a yellow-brown or buff shade, resembling contemporary "Indian" Yellow which sun and rain might convert into light yellow or dull orange.'

Regards
Chris

Well done Chris... that would largely tie in with the contemporary sources and surviving uniforms.

 

[Geoff Charman]

Many thanks Guys, that is some splendid research material for this uniform.

I will digest it and have a further play with my paints, but it will be the nearly last thing I paint on the tunic with this bust.

Thanks again.
Geoff

 

[Geoff Charman]

As I had some shadow colour mixed up I diluted it and gave the tunic a wash of it, how is this??

It might dry a bit lighter.

Geoff

 

[NeilW]

As I had some shadow colour mixed up I diluted it and gave the tunic a wash of it, how is this??

View attachment 371379

It might dry a bit lighter.

Geoff

Pretty good match for the de Bosset potrait... I'd go for it

 

[Geoff Charman]

Pretty good match for the de Bosset potrait... I'd go for it

Thanks Neil

Geoff

 

[Richard Baxter]

Looks good to me, shades of the window cleaner's best friend!

Another excellent discussion everyone, first class research and knowledge from all concerned.

 

[NeilW]

... a yellow-brown or buff shade, resembling contemporary "Indian" Yellow

Indian yellow pigment is claimed to have been originally manufactured in rural India from the urine of cattle fed only on mango leaves and water. ​

​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_yellow​

​

So, if they ran out of Jeff's onion skins, they could always use cow's urine (again readily available)... mind you, finding the mango leaves to feed the cows might have posed a problem


Even so, the range of hues available from it doesn't help this conversation: see here




BTW: as far as I know this was a paint pigment, probably far too expensive to use as a dye

 

[NeilW]

... shades of the window cleaner's best friend!

Is that a reference to those awful Robin Askwith films

https://www.videodetective.com/movies/confessions-of-a-window-cleaner/145681